Madrid Bombings & the Aftermath to Come

[aliantha]

I wonder about us sometimes. If I were president, I would kill 100 al-Qaida members for every terrorism death that they caused. The action would be swift & merciless. If women, children, old people, crippled people had to die, then that's the way it would be.

Zeph (aliantha asked respectfully), how exactly are you planning to pinpoint those 100-times-our-dead al Qaida members? Do they carry IDs? Don't you guys think that if Dubya and his buddies could pinpoint al Qaida members to the degree you're talking about, we would have done them all in by now? As the main character in this series I once read says, "It's not that simple."

At this point, nobody knows for sure that al Qaida is even involved. The Spanish authorities haven't completely ruled out ETA (although this attack is certainly not their style). The group that has claimed responsibility is notorious for claiming responsibility for stuff that they clearly had no part in. Sure, al Qaida has a lot to answer for -- but maybe not this.

I know that this is upsetting. I'm upset about it, too. But please let the authorities do their jobs and figure out what happened and who's at fault. Then we can talk about retribution.

[dANdeLION]

I disagree. It's much better to jump to a hasty conclusion now, while we don't have all the facts!

[aliantha]

[Brinn]

these people are prepared to die for their cause.

And I would hope we are prepared to accommodate them. To paraphrase Patton, wars are not won by dying for your cause but by making your enemy die for theirs.

What I'm trying to say is that once one side chooses to hate, the options of the other side become severely limited, as in fight back or die.

This statement succinctly cuts through the extraneous PC BS and hits upon the crux of the issue here. What does one do when negotiation or compromise is not an option? If the perpetrators of this crime are Al-Qeada members the bottom line is that negotiations have been rejected. As I have stated in the past, radical Islam hates us not because of who or what we are but rather for who and what we are not i.e. radical Islamists. It is time we stopped asking what we have done wrong to make them hate us so and rather begin asking what is wrong with a culture and religion that supports an ideology that glorifies suicide and the taking of innocent lives.

This is a clash of ideologies that will test the national wills of the democratic west. It is a clash that freedom-loving people cannot afford to lose. It is difficult to understand terrorism and particularly suicide (homicide would be a more appropriate term) bombers in the democratic west, where empathy for others, openness and tolerance of diversity, and self-examination are as much a part of our culture as the freedom of choice we so often take for granted. We perceive these traits to be universal and thus we have difficulty conceiving an enemy in whom these traits are not apparent.

In radical Islam there is no questioning of who is right and who is wrong, there is no inclusiveness nor tolerance for differences, there are only the believers and the Kafirs, Islamists and infidels. Once again I state that to make peace in this war does not require our reconciliation, it requires our capitulation. This is an enemy who does not share our uneasiness or moral outrage at killing those who do not think like we do. Our beliefs place us at a disadvantage. The enemy welcomes generations of killing if it advances their ideology, destroys the non-believers and helps to reestablish the Caliphate. Peace is not an option so long as we are not radical Muslim and that is the crux of the issue. Their ideology does not permit tolerance and co-existence.

In the words of Osama Bin Laden on February 23, 1998:
…in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies-civilians and military-is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.
This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God." This is in addition to the words of Almighty God: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'" We-with God's help-call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

[dlbpharmd]

I agree with Brinn above about the reasons why Islamic fundamentalists hate the US so much. I would add two other reasons: the US' continued support of Israel; and the fact that it is in the Islamic governments best interest to foster hatred of the US.

Fareed Zakaria's columns in Newsweek magazine can shed alot of light on the latter. Let's take Saudi Arabia for example. Saudi Arabia is one of the most repressed countries in the world. Recently, according to Parade Magazine, the Saudi regime is listed in the top 10 dictatorships in the world. There are no free elections and basic human rights are not observed. Why, it is illegal for a female to appear in public without being escorted by her husband or another male family member. And even though the Saudi's export billions of dollars per year in oil, most of its citizenry are impoverished.

How does the Saudi government control its citizens? What keeps them from overthrowing their King and princes? According to Zakaria, by focusing the hatred and anger of the common people onto foreign countries, most notably the US and Israel. That's why the Saudi leaders pay lip service to the US but teach the children in the school rooms that all Arab problems stem from Israel.

On another point, if Al Qaeda is involved in this tragic attack in Spain, then we know one thing very clearly: Al Qaeda is no longer strong enough to attack the West. Why else devote time and resources in attacking the Spanish? I mean, Spain certainly is no pushover, they are a member of NATO - but they certainly don't have the capabilities to chase some fringe group halfway around the world. If Al Qaeda is responsible, they struck against Spain out of weakness, not strength. So in my mind, the US is winning the war on terror.

Regarding terrorism, I don't think terrorism will ever end. But as someone said above, that doesn't mean that the victimized country should not respond. That's basically what the US did when Clinton was President. When the U.S. Cole was attacked, we chucked a couple of cruise missiles at some tents in Afghanistan, but did we really deter them? Of course not, our unwillingness to go after the terrorists only served to embolden them to attack again, with even more deadly results.

And one last thought: Spain stood behind the US against Iraq. The US must stand behind Spain. The US should spend resources in helping them determine who is responsible for this, and once that's been accomplished (whether it's Al Qaeda or not,) it should be the US (with Spanish cooperation) who should retaliate.

[hierachy]

I plan on nothing, Monkey. I am a computer draftsman in Tampa. I have never held a public office, much less the presidency. I have killed no one. I have never done one damn thing to you, or any of those people who seek my death. And I doubt you have, either. So don't sit in front of your pc and tell me what will increase terrorism, because neither of us knows.

Don't give me that dAN. You choose to reply to this thread and voice your opinions, as did I. Nothing here is a personal attack at you, and none of it should be taken personaly. If you don't wish to take part in a debate then don't, it's as simple as that.

Very good points from both brinn and dlbpharmd, and I hear what you say. But, I still don't beleive a "war" on terrorism is the answer. Anyone can potentialy be a terrorist, I could be, you just don't know. So how can you fight a war against an enemy you cant see?

[Zephalephelah]

I'm not saying it's impossible, although I do find it VERY unlikely. What I'm saying is, war and killing is NOT the answer, that most certainly is not the way to stop it.

It's most absolutely the way to stop it.

Let's say I'm part of a nation that hates another nation. I send terrorists over there to cause innocent civilians to die, be maimed for life, be hospitalized, and overall be afraid of when it will happen again and if they'll be there just eating a cheeseburger.

So they get mad & drop several hundred bombs on my capital city.

That might infuriate me. So I send more terrorists. And they kill a record number of people.

So they get mad & invade my country, take over my government, change the policies of the government, round up the leaders of my terrorist organization, bomb the hell out of a bunch of people on the way in, and imprison a bunch of people on the way out. All told, I killed 982 of them. They killed 14,594. After awhile, simple math is going to win. Also, my government has been changed, I lost my most merciless leaders.

Now let's say I dirty bomb that country.

So they get mad & nuke my country.


You know what, that's my viewpoint. If you are going to commit an act of cowardice, excuse me, I meant terrorism, then you had better be prepared for a very strong reaction. And that reaction should always be 100 times as strong as the action that caused it. Eventually, even the stupid terrorists will begin to realize that they are damaging their way of life by this method. They will lose everytime. The world is sick of it.


And if Millions have to die, THEN SO BE IT!

This has got to stop at any cost. I don't want children growing up fearing about whether that man with the backpack is their trip to a hospital or worse when all they really want to do is eat a cheeseburger in peace.

[Edinburghemma]

I presume you are not a Christian then Zeph?

[hierachy]

When that country is invaded, and the government overthrown and the invaders leave, It's all over. And everyone hates the ivader that little bit more. Then it happens with the next country, and the next. Until everyone REALLY REALLY HATES that invader. What if one day they all hate that invader so much that they put aside their own squables and unite in one common goal. What then will that invader do?

[Zephalephelah]

Terrorists remind me of bullies on an elementary school playground. They'll pick on little kids, sneak up behind them and push their face in the sand, but they shut up real quick when an adult shows up (someone that's bigger and stronger than they are and doesn't arbitrarily attack people).

All those countries like to point out evil america. The truth of the matter is that if the USA wanted to take over other countries like Iraq did with Kuwait, noone can stop it from happening. The truth of the matter is that when someone needs help, the USA is usually the first on the scene. The truth of the matter is that terrorists are like little childish, coward bullies who put their hands behind their back and act all innocent when a USA even-tempered adult walks in.

And the truth of the matter is that if the adult does catch that bully pushing someone around, that bully is in trouble. That's the way it goes. That's the way it should go.

What do you want, that we should send them money??? Kiss them on the lips???? (smootch smootch) Thank you for killing my children (smootch smootch) thank you for maiming my husband so that he can never walk again.

I say it's time for action. Right now! Before the public gets cold. Attack!!!

[hierachy]

It's all very well what you say. That is until you consider that the even tempered adult was just a few days ago showing the bully how to fight.

[Zephalephelah]

I presume you are not a Christian then Zeph?

Do me a favor & find it in the Bible where War is a sin. Okay? Thanks.

[Zephalephelah]

It's all very well what you say. That is until you consider that the even tempered adult was just a few days ago showing the bully how to fight.

I guess we just disagree.

[hierachy]

It's all very well what you say. That is until you consider that the even tempered adult was just a few days ago showing the bully how to fight.

I guess we just disagree.

Yes, it would seem so. I have very much enjoyed reading your views, zeph.

[[Syl]]

When that country is invaded, and the government overthrown and the invaders leave, It's all over. And everyone hates the ivader that little bit more. Then it happens with the next country, and the next. Until everyone REALLY REALLY HATES that invader. What if one day they all hate that invader so much that they put aside their own squables and unite in one common goal. What then will that invader do?

Yeah, that's why anybody of celtic descent is still pissed off at Norway and Rome. Pffff. Long standing hatred isn't new. Guerilla warfare (terrorism) isn't new. The only thing that's changed is the number of casualties either side can inflict. The only way the smaller side can win is by being more determined (read, more willing to sacrifice their side to attrition) than the other guy. As much as I respect you, Monkey, it's lukewarm claptrap like that that lets the other guy win and leads to the inevitable crumbling of any empire. Why can't we all get along? Because we never have, and people don't start getting along when body count and coverage are discussion points.

[hierachy]

I'm not really sure how to reply to this without repeating myself. How can you have a war without an enemy fight. More so when potentialy your enemy is anyone, from anywhere. Sure you can fight (push around, show who's tougher) the supporters of this enemy, you can weaken or even abliterate certain groups of the enemy, but you cant kill it completely. And war breeds hate, and your enemy will come back again and again and again. I apologise in advance for the bad analogy but it seems to me that the 'war on terrorism' is like trying to kill a raver using a sword.

[dlbpharmd]

And war breeds hate, and your enemy will come back again and again and again.

I read your intent but the meaning is not necessarily true. From the U.S. standpoint, Germany and Japan are no longer our enemies. Why? Because we rebuilt their countries and economies, and gave the survivors their lives back without fear of punishment from the victor. I truly believe we're trying to do the same thing in Iraq. The difference is it's costing us alot more money and we're up against a different kind of enemy.

[Torrent]

I presume you are not a Christian then Zeph?

Do me a favor & find it in the Bible where War is a sin. Okay? Thanks.

I was once told by a very active Christian (a Baptist), that the principles of Christian belief are not based on the bible as a whole (Old Testament) but on the Gospel and the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

And I remember something about turning the other cheek and loving your enemy, or am I completely ignorant?

It's hatred paired with religious fervor what drives those fanatics. Imitating them may be not the most sensible solution.

[Worm of Despite]

I'm of the belief that there will always be war as long as there are two people on this earth. I think the same applies to terrorism. I'm optimistic in subduing it, but, no, the only way one can completely stop it is not from killing millions but from killing 6.3 billion. It's a sad fact. The human race can't collectively agree on anything.

[dANdeLION]

Don't give me that dAN. You choose to reply to this thread and voice your opinions, as did I. Nothing here is a personal attack at you, and none of it should be taken personaly. If you don't wish to take part in a debate then don't, it's as simple as that.

I really don't know what you're babbling about here. Commenting and planning are two different things. If I had a plan, I'd have shared it with you, as you requested. I have no plan other than to support my country in this war.

So how can you fight a war against an enemy you can't see?

I saw the enemy fly our planes into our buildings, killing our people.