Madrid Bombings & the Aftermath to Come

[hierachy]

So how can you fight a war against an enemy you can't see?

I saw the enemy fly our planes into our buildings, killing our people.

And you saw your enemy die. Too bad you cant see his next incarnation.

Don't give me that dAN. You choose to reply to this thread and voice your opinions, as did I. Nothing here is a personal attack at you, and none of it should be taken personaly. If you don't wish to take part in a debate then don't, it's as simple as that.

I really don't know what you're babbling about here. Commenting and planning are two different things. If I had a plan, I'd have shared it with you, as you requested. I have no plan other than to support my country in this war.

that's fine, and all i plan to do is voice my opinions in this thread. dAN, what I said about planning to do something was purely hypothetical and should be treated as such.

[dANdeLION]

Oh. Well, hypothetically, I plan to get out my gramnpa's P51-D Mustang, load up the .50 cal. machine guns, top off the drop tanks, fire up the sweel Rolls-Royce/Merlin engine, take it up to about 20,000 feet, diving to about 100 feet when I reach Pakistan, go out to that 25 mile square intelligence believes Bin Laden is hiding, and have me one hell of a target practice! But you didn't hear that from me.....

[Zephalephelah]

I presume you are not a Christian then Zeph?

Do me a favor & find it in the Bible where War is a sin. Okay? Thanks.

I was once told by a very active Christian (a Baptist), that the principles of Christian belief are not based on the bible as a whole (Old Testament) but on the Gospel and the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

And I remember something about turning the other cheek and loving your enemy, or am I completely ignorant?

It's hatred paired with religious fervor what drives those fanatics. Imitating them may be not the most sensible solution.

I'm always surprised at people who attack my Christian beliefs. If I say I'm a Christian & they see something that isn't Christian, but rather human, it's always, "hey I thought you were a Christian Zeph." I guess we need insecure people who like to point out other's short-comings. I don't know why we need them, but... well no, I guess we don't really need them. Oh hell, just forget it. The fact of the matter is that everyone makes mistakes.

On the concept of war however, God told Israel to go to war on many occassions. War is *NEVER* listed in the Bible as a sin. Why? Because sometimes WAR is the only way to win. And against terrorists, it's the only thing they'll understand.

If it were possible to get rid of terrorism by killing a million people by way of nuclear destruction, I don't have any problem with that. I'm willing to stand by my country no matter what they do or how far they go to get rid of it. If they use forks to poke them to death & it takes 20 days per person, I'll buy extra forks.

I don't care how it stops. It's gotta stop.

[Kinslaughterer]

Did you ever think that God didn't tell Israel its ok to destroy the amorites, philistines, or others? Perhaps Israel decided to justify their invasions and conquests by saying God wanted them to seize Palestine?Maybe thats why war is not viewed as abominable, because they realized war would make a very effective tool when needed.
Its very much the same with radical Islam, as certain things are used to justify their actions through God.
1st Militant Judaism-Bronze Age
2nd Militant Christianity-Medieval/Age of Steel
3rd Militant Islam-Modern/Advanced Firearms Explosives and Rocketry

Terrorism will exist as long as the conditions for its creation exist. Education, real education, is probably the one of the only ways to combat it. I do not believe that something that feeds off violence will ever be annihilated by those means.

[[Syl]]

Perhaps Israel decided to justify their invasions and conquests by saying God wanted them to seize Palestine?

Technically, it wasn't called Palestine at the time.

Terrorism will exist as long as the conditions for its creation exist. Education, real education, is probably the one of the only ways to combat it.

I would like to believe that would work, but Hamas has proved otherwise. A very large portion of their suicide bombers are college graduates or students. Many terrorist leaders have even received degrees from American universities.
www.utep.edu/manganar/Chap_17/sld012.htm

[Kinslaughterer]

What are you getting technical on me all of the sudden? How about Canaan?

I see your point. Perhaps I should amend it by asking for wisdom rather than intellect? If only that can be taught. Certainly being less educated would not be help the situation either, right?

[[Syl]]

Agreed

[Guest]

Every single time there is a terrorist attack, a well-placed nuclear warhead should be detonated over a city. Eventually there won't be any terrorists.

[Worm of Despite]

Let's start with your town, whoever you are.

[Zephalephelah]

I love it when the media points out for terrorists how to better kill people-

www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.03/start.html?pg=4
perhaps on a rooftop in Brooklyn







happens all the time

[Torrent]

On the concept of war however, God told Israel to go to war on many occassions. War is *NEVER* listed in the Bible as a sin. Why? Because sometimes WAR is the only way to win. And against terrorists, it's the only thing they'll understand.

If it were possible to get rid of terrorism by killing a million people by way of nuclear destruction, I don't have any problem with that. I'm willing to stand by my country no matter what they do or how far they go to get rid of it. If they use forks to poke them to death & it takes 20 days per person, I'll buy extra forks.

I don't care how it stops. It's gotta stop.

It may be human to react with emotions of hatred, but it would be barbaric and animalic to ACT according to them. You have no problem killing innocent people in order to destroy one or three terrorist camps...fine for you.
Sorry, but to hear you say such a thing makes me angry and afraid, afraid for humanity and afraid for myself, because one day an American might actually push the button, regardless how it might effect others.

I don't know how many experiences with terrorism the American people have, but here in Europe nothing has ever stopped it. Okay, in Germany they stopped the RAF, but they were only amateurs in comparison.
Only, in Europe you can't just throw atomic bombs because everything happens on another continent.

This is getting too emotional...I'm gonna stop.

[[Syl]]

Sorry, but to hear you say such a thing makes me angry and afraid, afraid for humanity and afraid for myself, because one day an American might actually push the button, regardless how it might effect others.

And one day it might be a German, an Israeli, a Russian, etc. There are plenty of countries with nukes, and despite what its citizens might believe, none of them are intrinsically better, less bellicose, than Americans.

I don't know how many experiences with terrorism the American people have...

Unibomber, Oklahoma City, and a little thing like the World Trade Center (twice), just to name a few examples.

[Guest]

Sorry, but to hear you say such a thing makes me angry and afraid, afraid for humanity and afraid for myself, because one day an American might actually push the button, regardless how it might effect others.

And one day it might be a German, an Israeli, a Russian, etc. There are plenty of countries with nukes, and despite what its citizens might believe, none of them are intrinsically better, less bellicose, than Americans.

I don't know how many experiences with terrorism the American people have...

Unibomber, Oklahoma City, and a little thing like the World Trade Center (twice), just to name a few examples.

I don't think that any country is better or worse than the US, you got me wrong there. I would criticise any German (maybe even more) who would talk in such a way. I think, especially as a German there is no thing more far-fetched for me than being proud of my country. I don't identify with 'my nation' or 'my government' in such a way, and I certainly wouldn't die for anyone just because he or she is German or because he or she chose to join the military. So it just sounds a little absurd to me to hear anyone talk about such things.

It's just that Iraq is much closer to Europe, and I don't believe that anyone in Europe wants another Tschernobyl or that anyone with any common sense wants another Hiroshima.

And I was talking about terrorism before 9-11, Caer. I thought that was obvious. But I actually don't think that before 9-11 the American public was very much interested in terrorism in Spain, was it? I think people here in Europe are not 'better' in that respect. It is just a question of proximity, of being involved personally. We see the news on TV, and there is something going on all the time, but WE are not involved. It's always far away. Now this is different, isn't it? It's not Belfast or Jerusalem any more. Somehow the TV pictures have become real, and in a way NY feels closer to many Germans than Belfast, I suppose. And of course, the reaction of many people is just like the reactions of Israelis and Palestinians. What comes out of it can be followed daily on TV. Eye for an eye...and every day more eyes popping up.

But that talk about nuclear bombing.... You can't just destroy everything you can't control. What kind of political attitude would that be? After all, wasn't that one of the major motives to attack Iraq: to destroy possible nuclear weapons? How could one justify it to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians with nuclear bombs then? Even if this is just a theoretical discussion.

This is nothing personal and nothing 'national' either. I think there are similar discussions going on in many forums, in many countries, pro & contra.

[I'm Murrin]

I love it when the media points out for terrorists how to better kill people

I think I remember a while ago some news site posted an article criticising supermarkets because it was possible to buy all the ingredients for a mail bomb at Tesco's - it listed the ingredients.

[Zephalephelah]

For once, your avatar reflects your post.

[Worm of Despite]

Kinda weird. I kept thinking, when this stuff was first on the news, "Madrid, Madrid! I know that name." And it turns out that the only place I remember Madrid from is from reading For Whom The Bell Tolls. Those bombings almost eclipsed my definition of the place.

[[Syl]]

I don't think that any country is better or worse than the US, you got me wrong there.

No, I do not. You said you were afraid of an "american" pressing the button. Not someone; an american. You are the one that brought nationality into the debate. My entire point is that nationality is irrelevant.

I think, especially as a German there is no thing more far-fetched for me than being proud of my country. I don't identify with 'my nation' or 'my government' in such a way...

There's a difference between nationalism and patriotism. Just because your country once took it too far, doesn't mean you can't be proud to be a German. I would be. And as cliched as it might be, I am proud to be an American, and I have a right to be.

And I was talking about terrorism before 9-11, Caer. I thought that was obvious.

It was, but not stated. My examples were mostly pre 9-11.

[hierachy]

Sorry, but to hear you say such a thing makes me angry and afraid, afraid for humanity and afraid for myself, because one day an American might actually push the button, regardless how it might effect others.

And one day it might be a German, an Israeli, a Russian, etc. There are plenty of countries with nukes, and despite what its citizens might believe, none of them are intrinsically better, less bellicose, than Americans.

I don't know how many experiences with terrorism the American people have...

Unibomber, Oklahoma City, and a little thing like the World Trade Center (twice), just to name a few examples.

I don't think that any country is better or worse than the US, you got me wrong there. I would criticise any German (maybe even more) who would talk in such a way. I think, especially as a German there is no thing more far-fetched for me than being proud of my country. I don't identify with 'my nation' or 'my government' in such a way, and I certainly wouldn't die for anyone just because he or she is German or because he or she chose to join the military. So it just sounds a little absurd to me to hear anyone talk about such things.

It's just that Iraq is much closer to Europe, and I don't believe that anyone in Europe wants another Tschernobyl or that anyone with any common sense wants another Hiroshima.

And I was talking about terrorism before 9-11, Caer. I thought that was obvious. But I actually don't think that before 9-11 the American public was very much interested in terrorism in Spain, was it? I think people here in Europe are not 'better' in that respect. It is just a question of proximity, of being involved personally. We see the news on TV, and there is something going on all the time, but WE are not involved. It's always far away. Now this is different, isn't it? It's not Belfast or Jerusalem any more. Somehow the TV pictures have become real, and in a way NY feels closer to many Germans than Belfast, I suppose. And of course, the reaction of many people is just like the reactions of Israelis and Palestinians. What comes out of it can be followed daily on TV. Eye for an eye...and every day more eyes popping up.

But that talk about nuclear bombing.... You can't just destroy everything you can't control. What kind of political attitude would that be? After all, wasn't that one of the major motives to attack Iraq: to destroy possible nuclear weapons? How could one justify it to kill hundreds of thousands of civilians with nuclear bombs then? Even if this is just a theoretical discussion.

This is nothing personal and nothing 'national' either. I think there are similar discussions going on in many forums, in many countries, pro & contra.

I agree. ('cept belfast seems alot closer than NY to me )

[Torrent]

Okay, you got me there. I shouldn't have said 'American' in that context. Same for the terrorism thing...I think I only saw the Words "World Trade Center" and reacted in a polemic way. I'm sorry.

I just saw a discussion on TV about the Madrid bombings, and as usual I am torn between anger (why is nobody able to get these guys...), frustration and the will NOT to become prejudiced, to stay on the rational side. I still think they should be able to get these guys, and them alone. Still it wouldn't end that kind of terror. The conflict is bigger than that, and to solve it there has to be another way.

[dANdeLION]

I heard last night on the news that the people of Spain voted out their leaders because they sided with the US against terrorism. If this is true, I hope they understand that terrorism won't go away because of their vote.