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Moonshine!

Post by peter »

It occurs to me how little I actually understand about our closest celestial neighbour, the moon.

If I've got it right, it stays in orbit because the gravitational attraction pulling it down toward Earth is exactly balanced by it's tendacy to want to fly off into space [like a stone whirling round on a string when the string suddenly breaks. So the gravitational force pulling it down is exactly balanced by the centrifugal [?] force pushing it away. So far so good.

But now for the harder bit. Presumably that delicate balance of forces is somewhere influenced by the speed of motion of the moon. Our stone on its piece of string will fly twice [?] as far when the string breaks if it is whirled at twice the speed, so so should be the case for the moon. So the magnitude of one of the forces, the centrifugal pulling it away into space, is dependant upon the speed at which the moon moves aroud its orbit. Now there is no such thing as perpetual motion and the moon has no power scource. The only way it can 'top up its tanks' is via the energy it accumulates as it essentially accelerates toward the surface of the earth as it falls [for that is what I believe is actually happening isn't it - its moving forward, but instead of in a straight line it's actually continuously falling into the circular orbit it maintains, but the energy input of the fall, instead of going into a change of rate of motion, is instead brining about a 'vector' change [ie a directional change] from the straight to the circular [an infinite number of consequtive straights]. And as the moon effectively accelerates [but doesn't] toward the Earths surface, its fall is balanced by an equal and opposit increase in centrifugal force that maintains its circular orbit rather than allowing it to actually fall.........or something.

But one day surely it's luck is going to run out. Surely even the minute level of friction it experiences out in space - from say even our thinly spread atmosphere at that distance - will slow it down to the point where it can no longer resist the attractive pull of the earths gravity - and then SPLASH or CRUNCH.

But while we're on the subject, what actually is its period of orbit around the Earth; Earth takes three hundred and sixty-five [give or take] days to rotate around the Sun, but I've no idea how long it takes the moon to rotate around the Earth - no wait - isn't it one day! Isn't that the reason why we only ever see one face of the moon; No that's all wrong - we see one face of the moon because it takes the moon the same time to revolve on it's own axis as it does to orbit the earth. So I guess the moon takes around what, thirty[ish] days, There are twelve months in a year - this means twelve[ish] complete cycles from new-moon to new-moon, but does this actually equate to orbits of the earth [I guess it does - I can't see any other reason why that waxing and waning would occur in the regular way it does]. But why did we give some months thirty days and others thirty-one? But if it takes thirty days to orbit the Earth, then why is it visible in the night sky for all of us every night [except on the single nights of the new-moon]. If it took thirty days to rbit the Earth then for twelve or so days each month it should only be visible during the day [or not as the case may be] while it completes the part of it's orbit that is firmly between the Earth and the Sun; We should thus go for an extended period each month of no visible moon at night? :? As I said..........Moonshine.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Centrifugal 'force' isn't really a force. It's merely inertia. Objects tend either to stay at rest or to move in a straight line unless acted on by a force (Newton's 1st law of motion). There's no balance between two competing forces. The moon is simply falling. Think about it this way ... if you shoot a projectile straight up (at less than escape velocity), it will fall straight down (ignoring rotation of the earth, etc.). If you shoot it at any other angle, it will travel up, down, and also forward to some degree, tracing out a parabola. The other end of this parabola can be adjusted according to the angle and the speed at which you shoot it. At most angles/speeds, the end of this parabola is at another spot on earth. But at great enough speeds and the right angle, the other end of this parabola will be at some point in space, since the "bow" is bigger than the earth. But at just the right angle/speed, it will simply keep falling forever, going round and round. That's how we put things into orbit. Otherwise, that's how we calculate ballistics. (That link has some parabolas in motion, at various angles.)

So the way you word it is a little misleading. You say, "Presumably that delicate balance of forces is somewhere influenced by the speed of motion of the moon."

I think it's more accurate to say the speed of the moon is dependent upon its distance from the earth, since the force of gravity decreases with the square of the distance between. (The force is also dependent upon the mass of the two objects, but they're not increasing appreciably.) The greater the force accelerating the moon, the greater its speed. (And you are using acceleration correctly; acceleration has both scalar and vector magnitudes.)
Peter wrote: Now there is no such thing as perpetual motion and the moon has no power scource. The only way it can 'top up its tanks' is via the energy it accumulates as it essentially accelerates toward the surface of the earth as it falls ... And as the moon effectively accelerates [but doesn't] toward the Earths surface, its fall is balanced by an equal and opposit increase in centrifugal force that maintains its circular orbit rather than allowing it to actually fall.........or something.
I think it's more accurate to say there is no perpetual motion machine, meaning a device from which you can extract energy. There's no reason why two objects can't revolve around each other forever. [Edit: apparently,I'm wrong on this point.] And instead of saying "rather than allowing it to actually fall," I'd say it's perpetually falling.

However, the moon is actually moving away from the earth, not in danger of crashing into it, due to tidal forces. It's pretty complicated, you can read more here

As for the calendrical consequences:
At the simplest level, most well-known lunar calendars are based on the initial approximation that 2 lunations last 59 days: a 30-day full month followed by a 29-day hollow month — but this is only roughly accurate, and eventually needs correction by using larger cycles, or the equivalent of leap days. Additionally, the synodic month does not fit easily into the year, which makes accurate, rule-based lunisolar calendars complicated. The most common solution to this problem is the Metonic cycle, which takes advantage of the fact that 235 lunations are approximately 19 tropical years (which add up to not quite 6940 days). However, a Metonic calendar will drift against the seasons by about 1 day every 200 years. Metonic calendars include the calendar used in the Antikythera Mechanism about 2000 years ago, and the Hebrew calendar.

The complexity required in an accurate lunisolar calendar may explain why solar calendars, with months which no longer relate to the phase of the Moon, but are based only on the motion of the Sun relative to the equinoxes and solstices, have generally replaced lunar calendars for civil use in most societies.
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Post by Zarathustra »

As a teen, I was an avid reader of Asimov's nonfiction writing (he wrote books in every section of the Dewey Decimal system). He used to bundle up his science essays every couple of dozen or so into a volume with an overall theme. This book, TRAGEDY OF THE MOON, explores how important it was to the development of life and civilization. His conclusion is that we wouldn't be here without a moon. Fascinating read. He's one of my favorite science and nonfiction writers. Some people think it's better than his fiction.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Were humanity to set one goal for itself to accomplish by the end of the 21st Century, it should be to put a permanent international research station on the Moon. This station should also include an underground storage facility containing digital backups of every piece of literature, music, work of art, and movie or video clip of any cultural relevance whatsoever (music videos = yes, even from artists I don't like but clips of kittens jumping around and swatting at ants = no, even though such videos are cute).

I concur with Dr. Asimov's conclusion that we wouldn't be here without the Moon. The Moon was how our distant ancestors who developed agriculture managed to figure out when to plant crops according to annual cycles, agriculture being the key element needed to make us settle down into permanent areas rather than wandering around hoping to catch the herd.

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Post by peter »

Helpfull post Z. - many thanks. I'm still a little puzzled how we manage to see the moon virtually every night even though [it seems to me] it should be between the earth and the sun for suficient time [about 15 days given a 30ish day orbital period] for it to be only in a position it could be seen from during daylight hours. Granted we'd probably see it from an oblique angle either early at night or just before dawn, particularly in periods when the night is longer, but I'm suprised there is only 1 night of actual darkness when the moon does not appear at all.

Agreed in respect of Asimov. I've read his 'Guide to Science' a couple of times and it's a great introduction to the history of the subject. It's quite interesting to speculate to what degree things would be effected if the moon were suddenly no longer there. Certainly the 'litoral' lifestyle would be a no-no and there'd be a lot of pissed off surfers about.... but would it be a 'game-over' for us, I wonder?
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Post by Zarathustra »

Hashi, the moon has done important things for the evolution of life in terms of physics alone, like shielding us from asteroids (either from attracting them to itself or shooting them out to a different orbit) and stabilizing our rotation.

Peter, just because we can see the moon most nights doesn't mean we see it all night long. In its first or last quarter stages (or less), it's only up for a brief time at night, either early or late. And in the case of the last quarter, it's then visible in the morning until noon (I think).

Your surprise that we could see the moon at night when it's on the "day side" of the earth would also render any planet closer to the earth invisible, since they're always on the "day side" of earth, being closer to the sun than we are. We can see them at night (again, either early or late -- never in the middle of the night, since they don't revolve around us), so why should it be any trouble to see something that is even closer and higher in the sky than either Venus or Mercury?

Remember, we're not seeing all of the moon during these times. That's what produces the phases. I think if you drew it out, you'd see that there's no problem. Put yourself on the earth's sunset line, then put the moon anywhere from new moon to first quarter stages, and you can see that it would be clearly visible from that spot, progressively later into the night as it moves eastward against the stars during the month.
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Post by Vraith »

peter wrote:it should be between the earth and the sun for suficient time [about 15 days given a 30ish day orbital period] for it to be only in a position it could be seen from during daylight hours


Agreed in respect of Asimov.

... but would it be a 'game-over' for us, I wonder?
On the first, besides/related to what Z mentioned...there is the relative distances, and sizes, so you have to look at those and the angles. [[and of course the obvious that the sun sends light all over, not just at us.]]
The moon isn't "between" the Earth and sun for any appreciable length of time...when it is, we get an eclipse. Most of the time, it's angles.
If you have a lamp on a table across the room, and you hold your arm out to the side, you can clearly see your hand...then you can swing your hand between you and the lamp, and make an "eclipse." You can still clearly see all the other stuff around you in the room. [[including your other hand...peter is clearly a Mars, with two moons]].

I also like Asimov more for other things than for his fiction.

Without the moon, historically, things would definitely have happened differently---but that wouldn't necessarily mean no life or intelligent life. It probably would mean no us.
If it suddenly vanished now---large immediate effects, but survivable for a portion of us in the short-term, which might allow us time to adapt or move or change the world. Depending.
As I said somewhere else, though---the real problem would be who got rid of it, and what they want.
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Post by peter »

Is the moons orbital plane (round the earth) set at angle to the earth's around the sun then?

(Good news V. - my hudl has come up trumps where my laptop failed and has allowed me to access that map of problems in theoretical physics you lined to. It's excellent!)

On the orbital plane thing, somehow it seems that orbits in solar systems should be pretty parallel to each other, yet they don't seem to be. Any reason other than just randm collision effects etc why this is so?
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!

"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
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'Of course - you know you have.'
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Post by Zarathustra »

Most of the planets/moons/asteroids are all in the same plane, give or take a few degrees, which correspond with the ecliptic (the sun's apparent path through the stars, caused by our orbit). Comets not so much. I think Pluto's orbit is also a little wonky.

Are you asking this based on your question of the moon's visibility? Why would that make a difference?
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Post by Vraith »

peter wrote: (Good news V. - my hudl has come up trumps where my laptop failed and has allowed me to access that map of problems in theoretical physics you lined to. It's excellent!)

On the orbital plane thing, somehow it seems that orbits in solar systems should be pretty parallel to each other, yet they don't seem to be. Any reason other than just randm collision effects etc why this is so?
Glad you liked the link.

As Z said, most of the planes line up reasonably well. And yes, collisions and near-collisions [because of that gravity thing] account for the variations. Things out there look calm to us...and they are, relatively, compared to the early days. But the entire history of formation/interactions is kinda like a giant slow-motion this

The moon is very slightly out of the earth/sun plane, IIRC. That, plus the earth's axial tilt is why we don't have solar and lunar eclipses about once a month, two weeks apart, and always a path along the equator. [I'm mostly sure of all that]. And why Stonehenge alignments have a 19 [or is it 17? somesuch] year cycle.
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the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by peter »

I'm going to struggle with this until I have seen it diagrammatically in front of me. I've got a dk astronomy book but it's under 10 other crates of books so it looks like I have some work to do! :lol:

Interestingly, I read last night that there are many and varied ways that stars and solar systems can form, hence the diversity of types seen across the cosmos. This contrasts with atoms which all form in exactly the same fashion and all members of a given type are identical.
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!

"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

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Post by Vraith »

peter wrote:I'm going to struggle with this until I have seen it diagrammatically in front of me.
99.99% of this you could see almost instantly, with a dim room, a candle, and two different size balls.

Or, this might help:


fearofphysics.com/SunMoon/eclipse.html
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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Post by peter »

Thanks for the link V. There is a lovely youtube animation entitled 3ds Max Earth and Moon Rotation Animation [which I can't link to because my laptop won't for some reason], but gives me something to visually work with as well. I can't keep battering you guys on this, but if you like pretty animations and a soft bit of music have a gander at that [only a minute or so long]. If I said the sun was ways out to the right of that animation and for 14 days of its 28 day rotational period the moon was left side of a vertical line drawn through the center of the globe [which I don't think in that animation passes through the poles], effectively on it's passage 'backside of the Earth in relation to the sun - [pause for breath] then while I see that it would clearly be visible by inhabitants of the rotating earth for a period [either morning or night] during that 'backside' period, due to it's height, I'm just intrigued that it is only for one single night that the 'new-moon' lasts. I would have expected a bigger 'period of arc' during which the moon was invisible. Still - it is what it is! :lol:

Still talking moonshine - I saw my first 'blue-moon' [that I was aware of as such] the other night. Cool!
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!

"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

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Post by Zarathustra »

New moon is only "invisible" because you can't see the sunshine on it and it's so close to the line of sight for the sun that it's lost in the glare. But I thought the issue here was seeing the moon at night when it's on the "day side" of the earth, which implies some sort of blocking of the moon from the bulk of the earth itself. At least, that's what I thought you were talking about. But with the rotation of the earth, any slight deviation (on the moon's part) from the new moon position would quickly become visible on the sunset line of the earth, and thus visible (briefly) at night, due to both the angles of view and the sliver of reflected sunlight. The moon moves pretty damn fast. It doesn't take long. Make a point some night to watch the moon's movement against the stars from one night to the next and I think you'll see what I mean. It travels quite a bit from one night to next.
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Post by peter »

Ok - Lets try and clarify this. If the moon is on the line joining the center of the earth to the center of the sun, but in between the earth and the sun, then as the earth rotates [counter clockwise as you look down from above], as [say] London passes the line perpedicular to that first line [which it will do twice daily - once heading toward the moon and once heading away] the moon will become visible for a period during both early morning and late evening, while the light is low enough [or indeed altogether dark] that it may be seen. during full daylight hours it may be seen in that 'diaphenous' way it sometimes appears during the day - but most often you won't see it. For the bulk of the night however, the moon will not be visible because the bulk of the world will be between London and it.

Now consider the situation if the moon is on the lower perpendicular and our London viewer is also on that perpendicular at what 6[ish] in the evening. The moon will be illuminated by the sun and for a good portion of the night will be visible in London. But at the point our man goes past the earth sun line [say about midnight] the moon will dissapear because there will be a mass of earth between it and him. He will not see the moon again untill the following night by which time it will be one twenty-eigth[ish] further on in it's orbit which will make it appear to rise a little later.

Now lets skip a ninety-degree step and go on to the point where the moon is once again on the perpendicular - but this time the upper one. This time the situation is reversed and after a night of pretty much nothing, up pops the moon in the early hours and our viewer gets a sustained sighting for a few hours untill the light [or the bulk of the earth] once again obscures it from view.

At this stage we have covered the three points that correspond to the moon being 'sun-side' of the earth and we agree that there has been no night to date on which the moon has not been visible. But now things get a little sketchy because the moon is passing behind the earth. We have covered about fourteen days of the moons orbit, satisfied that we can see the moon on all of those nights.

Now to consider the relative distances involved here; Sun - 93 million miles, moon - one quater million miles. So the sun is approx 372 times as far away as the moon. Now if the moons orbital plane is 'on a plane' with the suns orbital plane, and given that the moon is [in terms of relative distance] virtually holding hands with the moon compared to the sun ........................................................................................................................got it!.......... It is the illumination from the peripheries of the sun that keeps the moon illuminated for longer than would be expected [rather than if you take it's light as all emanating from it's center]. The diameter of the sun compared to that of earth means the cone of unilluminated space behind the earth is much smaller and this in conjunction with the moons height accounts for the fact that there is only one night of no moon rather than the many that would be the case if all the light from the sun emanated from the single point at it's center. :!!!:

[...or something.... ;) ]
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!

"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

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Post by Zarathustra »

Whew, I'm still not seeing the source of your confusion, but it sounds like you're working it out. I think you're making it too complicated, however. Since it obviously works out in the sky, the problem must lie in how you're imagining it and the assumptions you're making that lead you to believe there's a problem.

If you looked at a scale drawing of just the earth and moon, you'd see that the distance between them is so vast, compared to their relative sizes, and the distance traveled each night by the moon is so great, that there's really no issue here. Granted, one night after new moon it's still going to be damn close to the horizon (thus, not visible for long), and just a small sliver at that. But from the sunset line on earth (i.e. the terminator), it would be clearly visible "off to the side" (if we imagine looking down from above). There's no bulk of the earth to hide it at or near sunset.

When the crescent moon is on the opposite side of the sun*, the waning crescent, say one night before new moon, you'd see it just before sunrise, and it would then stay in the sky all day long (well, almost ... it would set just before the sun), but would be too slender and too close to the sun to see. (Maybe. Thin crescents are still visible in the daylight.)

So if you accept that it's only visible for a brief time at sunset and prior to sunrise on the days around new moon--we're talking an hour or less--then what's the problem? The viewers would be right along the edges of the day/night boundary, so there's no "bulk of the earth" problem to get in the way.

*[I guess you'd say it's west of the sun, instead of east of it, but it all "wraps around."]
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Post by peter »

Yes, I think I'm getting it Z. I think I just don't visualise stuff very well without a diagram to refer to. Your patience and explanations are appreciated.
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!

"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

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Post by sgt.null »

i was so hope this was about distilling....
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Post by peter »

It certainly can be Sarge, if you've got a good tecnique to share! :lol:
President of Peace? You fucking idiots!

"I know what America is. America is a thing that you can move very easily. Move it in the right direction. They won't get in the way." (Benjamin Netenyahu 2001.)

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

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Post by sgt.null »

peter wrote:It certainly can be Sarge, if you've got a good tecnique to share! :lol:
I had real moonshine once. when I was working at the state hospital in new hampshire a guy brought some from his uncle in upper state new york.

that stuff was deadly and awesome. what a kick!
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