Sunder- A Worthy Successor to H L Mhoram?/ Gov't of the Land

[Lord Mhoram]

MrKABC,

Sunder not only wielded the Krill of Loric (making him one of the select few people in the Land's history to do so) but he also held the Staff of Law, an honor even High Lord Mhoram didn't have.

Not really a valid point, in my opinion. HLM didn't wield the staff, but Osondrea, Elena, and Prothall all did. Mhoram didn't as result of the time in which he reigned, not for any lack of ability or honor.

[wayfriend]

HOWEVER, Sunder's largest failure IMHO was his lack of vision in setting up some sort of government for the Land (like a Council of Lords) and a succession plan for the Staff and the lore he learned for its use.

Given the state of the Land in the time immediately following the Sunbane, I don't think such a thing was possible. The Clave had all but eradicated the population. Those that remained had the first task of learning how to live under the new conditions. (SRD spoke at length about the difficulty of those who have lived under the Sunbane to live without it.) Then they needed to rebuild a civilization. Sunder was required to remain in Andelain, whereas the center of the reformation was Revelstone, many days away. IMO, enough was done considering the time and place.

[MrKABC]

HOWEVER, Sunder's largest failure IMHO was his lack of vision in setting up some sort of government for the Land (like a Council of Lords) and a succession plan for the Staff and the lore he learned for its use.

Given the state of the Land in the time immediately following the Sunbane, I don't think such a thing was possible. The Clave had all but eradicated the population. Those that remained had the first task of learning how to live under the new conditions. (SRD spoke at length about the difficulty of those who have lived under the Sunbane to live without it.) Then they needed to rebuild a civilization. Sunder was required to remain in Andelain, whereas the center of the reformation was Revelstone, many days away. IMO, enough was done considering the time and place.

That's true, however in re-reading ROTE it appears that the Staff of Law preserved Sunder and Hollian much like the Old Lords, so that they far outlived their natural lifespans.

Surely in the intervening years during Sunder and Hollian's extended lifespans after the passing of the Sunbane a likely selection of the Land's citizens could have been recruited to be the new ruling body?

Therefore I stand by my statement that Sunder/Hollian lacked foresight in forming a succession plan to hold the Staff of Law and govern the land.

[Kaos Arcanna]

HOWEVER, Sunder's largest failure IMHO was his lack of vision in setting up some sort of government for the Land (like a Council of Lords) and a succession plan for the Staff and the lore he learned for its use.

Given the state of the Land in the time immediately following the Sunbane, I don't think such a thing was possible. The Clave had all but eradicated the population. Those that remained had the first task of learning how to live under the new conditions. (SRD spoke at length about the difficulty of those who have lived under the Sunbane to live without it.) Then they needed to rebuild a civilization. Sunder was required to remain in Andelain, whereas the center of the reformation was Revelstone, many days away. IMO, enough was done considering the time and place.

That's true, however in re-reading ROTE it appears that the Staff of Law preserved Sunder and Hollian much like the Old Lords, so that they far outlived their natural lifespans.

Surely in the intervening years during Sunder and Hollian's extended lifespans after the passing of the Sunbane a likely selection of the Land's citizens could have been recruited to be the new ruling body?

Therefore I stand by my statement that Sunder/Hollian lacked foresight in forming a succession plan to hold the Staff of Law and govern the land.

They left the Staff in the care of their son. As far as tey had concerned, the Staff and Land were in good hands.

[Fist and Faith]

Yo, KA!! How the heck are ya?

[Kaos Arcanna]

Yo, KA!! How the heck are ya?

Getting better. Spent two weeks healing up from a leg wound ... now I know how TC felt about hospital smells. If I never smell gauze or disinfectant again ..

[Holsety]

While I recognize that in the Land's history there was a lot of nepotism in its governance (and control of the original Staff) at least Berek Heartthew had set up some form of stable government that passed the test of millennia (and the Desolation that followed).

I hate to cause a little quibble, but I disagree here. The stable government didn't past the test of millenia - 3 generations down and Lord Foul had undone all the good of the council, and Kevin desecrated The Land.

Furthermore the new lords are only in spirit the successors of the old, but are rather more like their children that never fully matured - they don't even grasp a full seventh of Kevin's Lore during their entire existence. Whether that can be counted against them is debatable, but the weaknesses of the Oath of Peace and their lore and whatnot is a restriction placed by their reliance on the Old Lords - it's a credit to their dedication and abilities that they lasted so much longer and finally found success. QED Mhoram is the first and only Lord to rise above Kevin in terms of ability, although Kevin is of questionable quality due to the ritual of desecration. IMO this is because the New lords tried to follow and preserve the ways of the Old Lords, which was a mistake. Thus Berek and his sons arguably did damage in the long run.

Moreover although Mhoram created a governing system it was corrupted by Foul. If you ask me The Land with the Clave and the Sunbane is worse than The Land with The Masters and Kevin's Dirt. Given that much of the problems around are because of the loss of the staff of law it seems the legacy of Sunder and Hollian has done better than the legacy of Lord Mhoram throughout the years.

I believe that Mhoram is "better", as necessary as Covenant to The Land's survival. Sunder, however, proved to be a worthy successor both by after years of living in the Sunbane grasping hope, much as Mhoram did with his unquenchable spirit. As I've said I believe Sunder's legacy endured better than did Mhoram's, but Mhoram having inherited The Land with an intact infrastructure would've been foolish to discard it, not knowing the corruption that Foul would bring in the future. But for Sunder to repeat that mistake would be folly. The Masters are better than the Clave for this reason, because while they are misguided there is hope they will learn to do better, and are impossible to corrupt without the Illearth Stone (which has made an unfortate reappearance in its own way), while the Clave was as an organization unable to do anything but harm the Land.

[Fist and Faith]

A little Final Chrons spoiling follows...

While I recognize that in the Land's history there was a lot of nepotism in its governance (and control of the original Staff) at least Berek Heartthew had set up some form of stable government that passed the test of millennia (and the Desolation that followed).

I hate to cause a little quibble, but I disagree here. The stable government didn't past the test of millenia - 3 generations down and Lord Foul had undone all the good of the council, and Kevin desecrated The Land.

Elena told us that Kevin lived centuries, but she's not specific. We do not know how much longer than normal Berek, Damelon, and Loric may have lived, but I imagine a bit. Of course, there's possibly considerable overlap in their lives, so their combined age is not necessarily the length of their combined rule. Still, they may have ruled for millennia.

QED Mhoram is the first and only Lord to rise above Kevin in terms of ability,

We have no indication that Mhoram rose above Kevin in terms of ability. Kevin did not fight a Giant-Raver, and that's certainly Mhoram's big power-act. Even samadhi's being daunted when he touched Mhoram is not a sign of Mhoram's power; but, rather, his inner strength. And in this, Mhoram was above Kevin. He resisted despair, whereas Kevin gave in.

IMO this is because the New lords tried to follow and preserve the ways of the Old Lords, which was a mistake. Thus Berek and his sons arguably did damage in the long run.

That would really be stretching such an argument. Berek learned at least a good chunk of his Lore directly from the Earthpower itself. It's difficult to find fault in such learning. Presumably, even if Damelon, Loric, and Kevin did not get such direct information, they didn't establish things that the Earthpower would not have been happy with.

If you ask me The Land with the Clave and the Sunbane is worse than The Land with The Masters and Kevin's Dirt. Given that much of the problems around are because of the loss of the staff of law it seems the legacy of Sunder and Hollian has done better than the legacy of Lord Mhoram throughout the years.

If we judged this by the physical appearance of the Land, I would agree. But I suspect some BIG things are falling apart. Caesures, Kas breaking lose, and Kevin's Dirt are probably only a start, and Foul seems to be having a good time. The Land with the Masters is in for a rough ride, after all.

[Holsety]

First off, totally right on the timespan of rulership issue, old lords definitely around for more than I was thinking.

QED Mhoram is the first and only Lord to rise above Kevin in terms of ability,

We have no indication that Mhoram rose above Kevin in terms of ability. Kevin did not fight a Giant-Raver, and that's certainly Mhoram's big power-act. Even samadhi's being daunted when he touched Mhoram is not a sign of Mhoram's power; but, rather, his inner strength. And in this, Mhoram was above Kevin. He resisted despair, whereas Kevin gave in.

Well, I'm not able to be sure on that count. Mhoram "unlocks the secret" of Kevin's lore - I've never been sure whether to count that as being stronger or weaker in terms of raw power than Kevin. However, in terms of the Lords it's always seemed to me that inner strength is not incompatible with ability. In Lord Mhoram's Victory, it seems that Mhoram harnessed Earthpower in a way Kevin was never able to because he fell into despite. The conclusion I've always felt naturally follows is that outside of the destructive power of the ritual - which Mhoram would've fallen into had he despaired - Mhoram wields Earthpower, due to his inner strength, at the strongest Kevin's Lore can bring it to. Kevin was unable to do the same because he despaired, because he caused the Ritual of Desecration. Keep in mind that with a weapon that can actually handle his power Mhoram takes on the illearth stone as well as a Raver, so powerful that Foul himself holds a piece for personal use.

Spoiler

I think that the stone's power doesn't diminish with fragmentation because the Viles, with it's "essence" frightened linden with white gold and the staff, which is apparently "suited to her".

All that aside, strictly in terms of ability Kevin probably has more 'tricks up his sleeve' than Mhoram or any of the New lords. The dispelling of the undead one lord (amartin?) does is a lot more 'tricky' than the simple increase in power mhoram undergoes, and only one aspect of the second ward. But Mhoram won a battle against Despite that Kevin did not. The only measure of Kevin's ability was that he's not stronger than the despiser (oh so shocking!) and that he's stronger than Elena with the Staff. That might prove important, except that Elena is like most other new lords, doesn't know all the secrets of Kevin's lore, and thus doesn't have the same ability as, say, Mhoram, or Kevin, or Linden would with the staff.

IMO this is because the New lords tried to follow and preserve the ways of the Old Lords, which was a mistake. Thus Berek and his sons arguably did damage in the long run.

That would really be stretching such an argument. Berek learned at least a good chunk of his Lore directly from the Earthpower itself. It's difficult to find fault in such learning. Presumably, even if Damelon, Loric, and Kevin did not get such direct information, they didn't establish things that the Earthpower would not have been happy with.

I'm not so sure - it's not so much that they establish things that "earthpower would not have been happy with" but that Kevin's Lore had not worked at the time of the old lords - instead it brought the ritual of desecration. Whether this is because it was not suited for it, or because none of the old lords including Kevin were able to use it well enough (more likely, since mhoram does and succeeds), its limitations still brought about desecration which would not have happened otherwise, and thankfully does not happen again.

Further, Mhoram is the only one of all the new lords who gained enough power from Kevin's lore to challenge Foul's host directly in the Land's time of need (I mean, he knocks wedges of ur-viles aside like flies). It's true that Kevin's Lore ultimately served to help save the land, but it did so by an extremely narrow margin - Mhoram.

If you ask me The Land with the Clave and the Sunbane is worse than The Land with The Masters and Kevin's Dirt. Given that much of the problems around are because of the loss of the staff of law it seems the legacy of Sunder and Hollian has done better than the legacy of Lord Mhoram throughout the years.

If we judged this by the physical appearance of the Land, I would agree. But I suspect some BIG things are falling apart. Caesures, Kas breaking lose, and Kevin's Dirt are probably only a start, and Foul seems to be having a good time. The Land with the Masters is in for a rough ride, after all.

Roight, it's not that things aren't bad. My point was simply that Masters>Clave as far as I see it - things would only be worse if The Masters decided in addition that they should slaughter random people and pool their blood to challenge Kevin's dirt. It's not that I agree with the role the Masters are playing, but I feel they're in every way preferable to The Clave. Since the people of the Land don't get taught any of their history, the Masters are the only suggestion of how Sunder and Hollian affected the land, and since the Clave has almost the same effect on the people of The Land they're the only thing we have left of Mhoram's legacy.

Personally I think The Land right now>2nd chronicles Land, but that within the next few books it will get markedly more dangerous as various forces which have thus far been mostly/fully inactive show their faces.

Spoiler

The Viles are already pretty deadly, and I betcha they'll be forgettable in comparison to the rest. By the way, were the Viles created directly by Foul? For some reason I feel like I remember another thing which created the Viles, but I canst remember.

[variol son]

Argh!

Spoiler

But the Masters serve Despite without even knowing it. Does no one see how terrible that is? The Clave, or at least those members of the Clave with any real power and authority, knew what they were doing. The Masters however believe that they are serving the Land in what they are doing but they aren't.

There is no army of dour-handed allies to aid Covenant and Linden this time around, just as they weren't there to aid Mhoram against the Giant-Raver and his army. The problem is that they may actually stand against the Ringthane and the Chosen, and that is where the true danger lies.

As to the comments about succession:

Spoiler

Sunder and Hollian spent their lives preparing Anele to follow in their footsteps once they were gone, from what he has told Linden during one of his few moments of lucidity. Seems like a plan to me. They couldn't do everything themselves, but at least they appointed a successor to continue their work. It's hardly their fault that he considered himself unworthy of their trust.

[Holsety]

Argh!

Spoiler

But the Masters serve Despite without even knowing it. Does no one see how terrible that is? The Clave, or at least those members of the Clave with any real power and authority, knew what they were doing. The Masters however believe that they are serving the Land in what they are doing but they aren't.

There is no army of dour-handed allies to aid Covenant and Linden this time around, just as they weren't there to aid Mhoram against the Giant-Raver and his army. The problem is that they may actually stand against the Ringthane and the Chosen, and that is where the true danger lies.

Spoiler

See, I agree it's not good that the masters are in place. But, if you ask me they will always be preferential to the Clave. It's worth saying that the Clave member who helped Covenant had a fair amount of power and ability, even if she wasn't in the little Raver council Gibbon had. Anyway, because The Masters aren't likely to be turned against The Land they're far, far better than the Clave, since they may eventually be convinced to do good. More importantly, they have already done good - they have offered temporary respite and rest to Linden and the others from the viles. Outside of a single member, the Clave never did any good for the cause of The Land, and for that the Masters are markedly better for the Land than the Clave.

[Avatar]

Good post.

--A

[Buckarama]

Well that stands to reason because the Clave never had to deal with the oath of peace.

Spoiler

And you are correct that at least the Masters are trying to do the right thing

[MrKABC]

I think we are kind of getting off topic here...

I postulated earlier in this thread that I thought Sunder was NOT a worthy successor to High Lord Mhoram simply because he made no effort to establish a new system of governing the Land after his passing.

I still stand by that argument. IMHO Sunder could have shared his power with others - he had the krill, the Staff of Law, knowledge of orcrest and the teachings of Covenant, the Haruchai, the Aumbrie of the Clave (and three Wards of Kevin's Lore), and the Giants.

We also know that he lived centuries (and so did Hollian) - ample time to allow the Land to heal and repopulate.

With all that going for him, just walking around the Land like some traveling salesman performing miracles seems like a waste of his life and the Staff of Law, and a hugely irresponsible action at that.

Passing the Staff to his son doesn't qualify - he should have set up an independent entity to encourage the healing of the Land and find /use Earthpower.

Judgement: LACKING. Sunder's arrogance placed the Land squarely in the mess it is in circa ROTE.

[matrixman]

Wow, I had never thought of Sunder, of all people, as being arrogant. I see your point, though.

[Fist and Faith]

First off, totally right on the timespan of rulership issue, old lords definitely around for more than I was thinking.

While looking up things about nagging questions, I noticed this from the end of Atiaran's tale about Berek:

In the fullness of time, Berek Halfhand was given the name Heartthew, and he became the Lord-Fatherer, the first of the Old Lords. Those who followed his path flourished in the Land for two thousand years.

She may not have meant exactly two thousand years, but it must have been closer to two than one or three, neh?

[Kaos Arcanna]

I think we are kind of getting off topic here...

I postulated earlier in this thread that I thought Sunder was NOT a worthy successor to High Lord Mhoram simply because he made no effort to establish a new system of governing the Land after his passing.

I still stand by that argument. IMHO Sunder could have shared his power with others - he had the krill, the Staff of Law, knowledge of orcrest and the teachings of Covenant, the Haruchai, the Aumbrie of the Clave (and three Wards of Kevin's Lore), and the Giants.

We also know that he lived centuries (and so did Hollian) - ample time to allow the Land to heal and repopulate.

With all that going for him, just walking around the Land like some traveling salesman performing miracles seems like a waste of his life and the Staff of Law, and a hugely irresponsible action at that.

Passing the Staff to his son doesn't qualify - he should have set up an independent entity to encourage the healing of the Land and find /use Earthpower.

Judgement: LACKING. Sunder's arrogance placed the Land squarely in the mess it is in circa ROTE.

By that logic, Mhoram is squarely to blame for the Sunbane and the Clave because he left no checks and balances that could have prevented Ravers from taking over the Council. In his arrogance, Mhoram was sure that he could find a better way for the people of the Land to serve Earthpower than Kevin's Lore and hence left the door wide open to the Despiser.


The krill was lost forever as it had become part of the tree stump formerly known as Hile Troy.

It's hard to say how many people survived the end of the Sunbane. A good portion of the survivors were servants of the Clave. For all we know, there could have been a civil war between the Clave's servants and the Stonedowners and Woodhelvinin.

Spoiler

And what makes you think that any government set up by Sunder would have survived the intervention of the Masters anyway?

Given the culture of the Land at the time of the Sunbane, I think it's unrealistic to expect Sunder to have recreated the Council of Lords or some other governmental entity ... or that the people of the Land would have accepted it if he had.

Sunder did what his family had done for thousands of years: he left the future in the hands of his son.

Hindsight being 20-20, we can say that was the wrong decision, but Mhoram also made decisions that had a horrendous cost for the Land.

[MrKABC]

By that logic, Mhoram is squarely to blame for the Sunbane and the Clave because he left no checks and balances that could have prevented Ravers from taking over the Council. In his arrogance, Mhoram was sure that he could find a better way for the people of the Land to serve Earthpower than Kevin's Lore and hence left the door wide open to the Despiser.

Not true IMHO - in High Lord Mhoram's time (and how many years did he have left to live anyway at the end of PTP?) the people of the land had health-sense and were capable of discerning evil. The thought of a Raver penetrating the Council would have been unbelievable at his time for that reason.

What checks and balances could High Lord Mhoram have instituted? With health sense and passing on his High Lordship to "successors equally dedicated and idealistic" in the established framework of the Council, I do not see arrogance.

Sunder, on the other hand, appears to have made no effort to pass on the Staff or his knowledge to anyone other than his son... that to me means he was a failure.

[Warmark]

Sunder, on the other hand, appears to have made no effort to pass on the Staff or his knowledge to anyone other than his son... that to me means he was a failure.

There is no evidence that Berek passsed on any knowledge to anyone other than his son either. We have never seen other Lords until Kevins period as High Lord.

[Kaos Arcanna]

By that logic, Mhoram is squarely to blame for the Sunbane and the Clave because he left no checks and balances that could have prevented Ravers from taking over the Council. In his arrogance, Mhoram was sure that he could find a better way for the people of the Land to serve Earthpower than Kevin's Lore and hence left the door wide open to the Despiser.

Not true IMHO - in High Lord Mhoram's time (and how many years did he have left to live anyway at the end of PTP?) the people of the land had health-sense and were capable of discerning evil. The thought of a Raver penetrating the Council would have been unbelievable at his time for that reason.

What checks and balances could High Lord Mhoram have instituted? With health sense and passing on his High Lordship to "successors equally dedicated and idealistic" in the established framework of the Council, I do not see arrogance.

Sunder, on the other hand, appears to have made no effort to pass on the Staff or his knowledge to anyone other than his son... that to me means he was a failure.

At one point it was also unbelievable that a Raver could ever take control of a Giant.

And one thing that Mhoram could have done that he evidently didn't do, was leave WRITTEN records. That would have a gone a long way towards preserving the true history of the Land ...