Kevin's Watch

MUrrin agreed, Locke and Alex (and possibly Christian) all could be the Smoke Monster, who could be Anti-Jacob and/or Jacob. It seems at times, that some of the dead people are on Jacob's side and some are on Anti-Jacob's side. And how does the island itself fit in.

Neither Ben, nor Locke's mothers seem to have been on the island dead, yet both have appeared and Walt has appeared after leaving the island, plus we have the sweat lodge visions and Boone's "paste" induced vision of Shannon being attacked (and Wet Walt) are these also all the Smoke Monster?

Just an idle thought, but what if loophole is limited to appearing as the dead, but Jacob is tied to the living? We saw Jacob appear in the Losties' lives as the same man (himself?).

Back to Murrin's point:

we never see two dead people together

which seems to hold true from those examples, and would seem to imply that Claire was not dead when she was in the cabin with Christian.

Which asks the question, who was talking as Claire to Kate when she told her not to bring Aaron back to the island? If the thought holds, could that have been Jacob?

The only hint we have of Walt's time with the Others was Ben admitting they had bitten off more than they could chew by abducting him. Does that mean they weren't controlling him? Could Jacob have been able to use Walt's form, as it appears he did to Locke?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Mr. Loophole is the smoke monster... it seems a bit of a stretch, though, since the monster seems to be able to be somewhat controlled but the Others... or by Ben, anyway. My guess, also, is that the "Jacob" we see in briefly in S3 is probably Mr. Loophole. As far as who they are... they're probably manifestations of some sort... of good and evil, Jacob is on the island to keep Loophole there...which is of course why Loophole would want him dead, so he could leave and wreck havoc on time or whatever

And who knows? Maybe the Black Rock crashed on that island for the same reason as the Oceanic flight crashed onto the island...in order to continue this struggle or whatever...

Come to think of it, that explains why "Alex" told Ben that he better do as Locke says or else... yeah... that makes perfect sense!

Alright, I forgot about things like Locke's mother appearing, I've not watched the old episodes for a long time (reason I'm getting the DVDs). Hurley's dead visitors, too, is an odd issue.

Maybe this will all make sense when I watch it over again - I'm going to be specifically looking for the things that the island does to push Locke on his path, and the reasons why Eko had to die.


Couple things:

- The Loophole/Jacob scene, Jacob is the one who encourages people to come to the island, while Loophole believes all they do is cause destruction.

- Locke's actions throughout season 5 are paving the way. He is the one who tells Richard he is the leader of the Others. Ben probably knew from Richard about Locke (though not the specifics, only that he's important), so that his becoming leader was essentially self-fulfilling. Loophole, as Locke and as Christan, takes advantage of the time-jumps to make sure this happens, to help Locke leave the island, and to convince him to kill himself. I can't remember enough to say if Ben's leaving the island in season 4 and accidentally breaking the wheel in the process was pushed by Loophole as well.

Murrin wrote:
- Locke's actions throughout season 5 are paving the way. He is the one who tells Richard he is the leader of the Others. Ben probably knew from Richard about Locke (though not the specifics, only that he's important), so that his becoming leader was essentially self-fulfilling. Loophole, as Locke and as Christan, takes advantage of the time-jumps to make sure this happens, to help Locke leave the island, and to convince him to kill himself. I can't remember enough to say if Ben's leaving the island in season 4 and accidentally breaking the wheel in the process was pushed by Loophole as well.

Christian did ream Locke in the "Donkey wheel" room about Ben being the one who turned the wheel "I said you had to turn the wheel John"

I too wasn't even thinking about Hurley's dead people off island, as well as "Dave", Christian also was off island after being dead, he was in Jack's office.

sindatur wrote:

Murrin wrote:
- Locke's actions throughout season 5 are paving the way. He is the one who tells Richard he is the leader of the Others. Ben probably knew from Richard about Locke (though not the specifics, only that he's important), so that his becoming leader was essentially self-fulfilling. Loophole, as Locke and as Christan, takes advantage of the time-jumps to make sure this happens, to help Locke leave the island, and to convince him to kill himself. I can't remember enough to say if Ben's leaving the island in season 4 and accidentally breaking the wheel in the process was pushed by Loophole as well.

Christian did ream Locke in the "Donkey wheel" room about Ben being the one who turned the wheel "I said you had to turn the wheel John"

I too wasn't even thinking about Hurley's dead people off island, as well as "Dave", Christian also was off island after being dead, he was in Jack's office.

Loophole could have just been taking advantage of the situation... but Christian sure is a conundrum! (We still haven't found his body, right? I seem to remember that they found the coffin...but not much else...)

Wasn't there something in season one about his shoes, too? Whether they found the body or not, I think it's pretty clear his appearances in S5 all support Loophole's agenda.

Murrin wrote:Wasn't there something in season one about his shoes, too? Whether they found the body or not, I think it's pretty clear his appearances in S5 all support Loophole's agenda.

Black suit, with White Converse tennis shoes. I believe there was at least one occurence of a child's shoes

egad. the theories fly!

er...who is richard? i don't remember seeing a postulation on who or what richard is. and i certainly don't remember any in show clues as
to who he is, except for several "he's been here a long time" kinds of
comments.

Someone who arrived on the island a long time ago, and his agelessness is something Jacob did to him. He's a regular cast member in season 6, so that'll be where we find out more - he'll get his own flashbacks, probably. I think the finale made him seem like one who's genuinely loyal to Jacob, and his response to Ilana's people serves to make me believe some of their story in turn.

It did make the connection between Richard and the Others suspect, however.

The season's going to turn into Loophole (Locke and co) vs Jacob's followers (led by Richard), even if Jacob is dead.

lucimay wrote:egad. the theories fly!

er...who is richard? i don't remember seeing a postulation on who or what richard is. and i certainly don't remember any in show clues as
to who he is, except for several "he's been here a long time" kinds of
comments.

Very True, all we got is his guyliner which makes him appear Egyptian to go along with all the island Egyptian stuff

My bet is that Richard is the captain of the "Black Rock", which I also bet is the ship we see coming to the island at the beginning of season 5 final ep. Jacob is now one of the Assended (oops, wrong show); but he obviously knew Ben was going to kill him; itching for it, I think. So, it was part of Jacobs design, for whatever ends.

I don't know if he was wanting it to happen so much as he just expected Loophole to find a way to him soon, and that may be the reason Ilana and the other Ajira 316 people were brought to the island.

Well yes, meaning he was itching to be killed to get him out of Loopsholes loophole final death grasp; perhaps a kind of a Obi Wan death decision moment.

Dang, Richard is not the capt of the Black Rock; that was Magnus Hanso. Maybe Richard was his first mate, then.

Kil Tyme wrote:Well yes, meaning he was itching to be killed to get him out of Loopsholes loophole final death grasp; perhaps a kind of a Obi Wan death decision moment.

Dang, Richard is not the capt of the Black Rock; that was Magnus Hanso. Maybe Richard was his first mate, then.

Have we ever seen Magnus Hanso? Richard could be Magnus, couldn't he?

It's possible "Richard Alpert" is a cypher, but the name has been shown to have significance, and Ilana called him by an older variation of it, so I think it might be too important to be false.

Murrin wrote:It's possible "Richard Alpert" is a cypher, but the name has been shown to have significance, and Ilana called him by an older variation of it, so I think it might be too important to be false.

Ah yes, Ricardus, I had forgotten about that, I've still got 3 eps to go on my rewatch

So.... Do we have an agreed upon Spoiler etiquette? [Spoilerquette]

USA (And Canada?) get the first episode next Tuesday.

I believe we have at least one country that suggests it premieres the following Sunday?

Who gets it when?

How long should we wait to discuss in-depth?

Is any spoiler that has aired somewhere, fine as long as it's "spoilered"? If not, where do we draw the line?

At the moment, we should definitely spoil tag things, not sure if I could wait to discuss it here...