Bakker's The Prince of Nothing series

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The Unholy Consult will be released in early July.

The upcoming one (as Brinn reveals) is The Great Ordeal. The Unholy Consult will be the one after that, presumably the conclusion.

Brinn, you lucky bugger.

I wouldn't call it my favourite of all time...hell, I don't know if I have an all time favourite, but it's pretty good. And different enough to make it intriguing. I've always been left wanting more at the end of each book.

And it's got some bits that are Gap-level brutal, maybe worse.

I'm definitely going to do a reread as soon as I finish the series I'm busy with now.

--A

[SerScot]

So, does anyone think Kellhus isn't going to end up being the "No-God"?

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I really can't decide, but it seems a viable option. Maybe. I'll see how I feel after my re-read.

--A

[Zarathustra]

Cool. I should be done with the Dark Tower by the time this book comes out. I told myself I was going to switch to nonfiction after DT, but I can't not read the next Bakker book as soon as it comes out.

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Anyway, non-fiction will always be there. Good fiction you have to grab when you can.

--A

[Brinn]

Just finished my second reread of The Great Ordeal. In a word...Harrowing. The story continues to get darker and more grim. Some things more clear and others still as mysterious as ever. Can't wait for the concluding "The Unholy Consult".

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Sheesh, and I remember thinking how grim it was already on my last read.

Well, 2 more books to go and I shall start these again.

--A

[Brinn]

These books are much better upon a second read. The density of the story blooms once you have the benefit of knowing where its going.

[Zarathustra]

I've read every book except the last one (White Luck Warrior?) twice. I think they hold up fine, but the writing impressed me more the first time around. Also, on the second read I wondered if they were as deep and profound as I'd first thought. I started doubting the larger picture, thinking that perhaps I'd assumed it was more complex than it actually is. I think Bakker is smart, a great illusionist. I think he is able to create an impression of depth greater than the actual depth.

Or maybe it goes a lot deeper than I think, and he's going to blow my mind. I hope so.

In the end, I think his greatest strengths are:

1. Creating unique, strong characters that interact with thoughtful, significant dialog and personal stories/goals that ache to be realized.

2. Crafting badass scenes to depict his larger story (this one is significant and often overlooked; it's like picking the right vantage point for a painter to paint a landscape)

3. Creating a realistic illusion of social/religious/cultural depth

4. Envisioning his world in fascinating, palpable detail--choosing the right details to emphasize.

5. Letting his own intelligence shine through his characters' intelligence, so that the entire plot seems smarter than it is.

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I've also read them several times (except the last one ) and I think I agree about the illusion of depth. But, it is also very complex, and grim.

Those are possible (and well done) even without the reality of depth as it were.

that said, I do sometimes feel like his cultures are a little too derivative.

Still, I think I did prefer them more on re-reading. Will see if that holds up in the wake of the renewed discussion.

--A

[Holsety]

Just finished my second reread of The Great Ordeal. In a word...Harrowing. The story continues to get darker and more grim. Some things more clear and others still as mysterious as ever. Can't wait for the concluding "The Unholy Consult".

I don't see mention of it on Bakker's blog, but fans of Bakker have mentioned that he's talked about the possibility of a duology following The Unholy Consult. So the conclusion might be a bit further away than you think.

I was not all that happy with the WLW but I am not sure I was reading very carefully at that time. I have a good opinion of the first three PoN books and was a bit less happy with TJE. To be honest, my memory of the series has faded a lot.

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I also wasn't that pleased with TJE, although WLW worked a little better for me.

Re-read coming soon. Just have to do Ericson's Forge of Darkness and Fall of Light first. Once I finish these Outlander books.

--A

[Hiro]

So, after reading about this series for a long while, I finally got around this year to read it. Some brief thoughts:

I found the inclusion of philosophy in a fantasy world, which I personally haven't read elsewhere, refreshing and different. The world itself is intriguing, I especially liked that the Mandate scholars are reminded of their mission through their dreams. I liked the many ironies, paradoxes and ambiguities that undermine the fantasy tropes. I liked the political maneuverings and Kellhus's road to omnipotence through his manipulation.

TJE, I didn't like as much as the first trilogy. There are some really bad scenes, in my opinion of course, and right next to the obscure writing some really DUH-way-too-obvious moments as well. That jarred. The second half started to get more enjoyable. The general plot is the most interesting, and the main reason why I want to read more. WLW I read through even faster, a lot better than TJE.

Not so sure about some of the main action scenes and plot points though. The Dragon, the Sranc. Dunno. The Skin-spies and their handlers seem more effective and riveting to me, than the blunt power of the Consult's war efforts. While always interesting to read, some of the plot is anti-climactic to say the least, for instance, as pointed out here elsewhere, the discovery of the map after the huge battle at the Library...huh?! However, the Momemn plot remained gripping until the last moments.

Things I don't like. Bakker's use of women as shown in the worldbuilding and his actual female characters. I don't see the point of it, except a limited worldview and imagination of both the author and his creation. Esmenet is to me overcompensating and slightly absurd. Mimara is all over the place. Yatwer and her cult, witches, come on.

Also, as others have mentioned as well, the sorcery comes down to a lot of blasting and burning. Except the teleporting and ultra-powerful Kellhus himself. While I find the battle scenes well written, I also find them too repetitive. I remember the first battle where sorcerers are used, against the Scylvendi, that was awesome. Since then, it has frankly been more of the same. Except that brief opening battle in TJE, where Kellhus uses mist, that was already more interesting than the basic sorcery-airforce-unit.

I don't know about you, but I was reminded of The Last Chron's a lot. The teleportation of Sorweel, Serwe and Moenghus, akin to those scenes in Fatal Revenant. The forest battle scenes of WLW reminded me of similar scenes in Fatal Revenant (I think) as well. And in the Moria part of TJE, the Wight of the Mountain strongly reminded me of the similar scenes in Against All Things Ending, with She Who...

One last gripe, which I haven't seen mentioned here (nor elsewhere, but elsewhere is relative to my limited viewing of course), is something which Bakker uses again and again in his scenes. I agree that his writing is generally quite strong, albeit obscure, and his philosophical musings keep things interesting, his varied descriptions are remarkable. In WLW especially, the WLW's POV was great.

However, what I refer to, it seems a motive or thematic link, but it is overused to the point of where I'm starting to read any scene and waiting for it to come up. There are a few where it doesn't. It was already present in the Prince of Nothing trilogy, and stood out for me there. It had its function now and then, but it was also overused. Now in both TJE and WLW, I found myself shaking my head:

I'm referring to Bakker's use of sunlight or starlight (in particular the Nail of Heavens) to backlight or halo or contrast or otherwise illuminate a character or scene in some significant-iconic-quasi-religious way. Which becomes - because of its omnipresence - slightly ridiculous the more it's used.

Perhaps there is a larger point to this backlighting, but the use of it stands out poorly. The pattern is either way too obvious or it has become an unconscious overused device.

I'm not expecting full blown masterpieces anymore, and I have learned to appreciate works for what they are, perhaps not perfect, but with a lot of stuff to enjoy nonetheless.

So still, with The Great Ordeal coming up, I'm anxious to read where the story goes from here.

[Holsety]

If you are interested in seeing philosophy in fantasy, you might want to try Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. It is more in the way of theological philosophy for the most part, but there are philosophical musings that have less to do with religion directly. It is one of those works that is sort of sci-fi sort of fantasy, but if you're not familiar you might want to look into it.

Things I don't like. Bakker's use of women as shown in the worldbuilding and his actual female characters. I don't see the point of it, except a limited worldview and imagination of both the author and his creation. Esmenet is to me overcompensating and slightly absurd. Mimara is all over the place. Yatwer and her cult, witches, come on.

I'm willing to agree that the female characters in the book are a little weak, but...how do I say this...I am ok with reading about a world which is pretty misogynistic in a general sense. I don't mind his general approach that Earwa is a pretty messed up world.

Perhaps there is a larger point to this backlighting, but the use of it stands out poorly. The pattern is either way too obvious or it has become an unconscious overused device.

I think it's just a constant reminder of the link between the nail of heaven and the consult. I missed it in the series, but fans and the wiki comment that the star apparently blazed brightly a couple years before the inchoroi first appeared (maybe in TTT index). The nonmen call it "The Newborn" (see The False Sun on Bakker's blog).

[Zarathustra]

I think that complaining that stories set in medieval-type worlds are misogynistic is like complaining that the world depicted in Roots is racist. Yeah, so? Should we pretend like it didn't happen?

But I don't think that was Hiro's point. I think he was simply saying that the females characters aren't as good. I'd agree with that, though I do think that Esmenet and Mimara are fascinating, well-rounded characters that Bakker seems to respect.

History itself has far fewer interesting female players (I know, I know ... that's men's fault ). We could dismiss that as a historic quirk if not for the fact that you could say the same about the modern world, too. Whether we're talking about scientists, politicians, musicians, sports stars, writers, etc., the ones that get the most attention are usually men. It's not fair, but it's true. We probably notice it even in our own choices: my favorite writers, artists, philosophers, scientists, and musicians are almost all men. I didn't want it that way. That's just the way it is. I certainly don't seek out work based on sex.

I think that stories which reflect this inequality are believable. It hardly even registers with me--which certainly cannot be said about the transparent attempts to 'equalize' fiction.

[Holsety]

I think that complaining that stories set in medieval-type worlds are misogynistic is like complaining that the world depicted in Roots is racist. Yeah, so? Should we pretend like it didn't happen?

Since it's OK, I think, for fantasy to be at least somewhat escapist, I'm OK with someone writing a story with a medieval flavor, yet have a substantially more egalitarian setting. I just don't understand complaining about the other. If you don't like it, fine, but it's a valid undertaking to depict harsh things, realistic, or not.

I'm not sure I agree that among artists, writers, and musicians, women are noticeably behind. I'm willing to agree that men seem more likely to rise to prominence than women in other fields, but I do think it seems less pronounced than in the past in the "developed world."

I am not as compelled by the importance of establishing career equivalence in some fields as I am by more general questions of welfare. I think it's good if women stand a good chance of securing a livelihood on their own if necessary or as part of a family, but it's not really important to me that there be famous women (or famous men). I am not an active participant in advancing science and technology, so since I just benefit from their results, it's hard to be impassioned about the demographics of the people within it. There may be some benefits to different walks of life, etc, but I don't think it's an overriding concern. It's good that women have more access to learning in general than before, but it's often good when anyone can learn more.

There are some careers where I am glad there has been an evening of proportions between men and women. It hasn't been important to me in the past whether a dr I see for whatever is male or female, but I'm OK with the idea that a patient is more comfortable with one gender or the other. I'm glad that there are many female doctors for that reason. Doesn't just go for OBGYN/GYN.

Generally, I liked Esmenet more in the first three books, and a bit less in TJE and WLW (I think this is because I don't really like her most precious son, though I know he carefully manipulates her not to see what we do. And, more generally, I am not really compelled by most of the kellhus kids.) I feel like I was not reading TJE and WLW well, and I don't really have a firm grasp of Mimara beyond her character background and her plot significance. I don't really remember why she loves akka (vaguely freudian?), why she goes with him on a death march, etc. It's not just her. I actually have a worse memory of the last two books in the series that I read than the first three.

Also this perhaps a bit weird to complain about, but I think it's odd that a mandate schoolman who would later educate the second coming of christ would just so happen to have a running affair with a prostitute who it turns out is the woman best genetically suited to breeding children with dunyain that they can find. I can't imagine the odds of stumbling upon a genetic outlier like that.

I guess Akka just has incredibly good taste.

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Hiro, nice to see you around.

I must say I never noticed the starlight / moonlight thing. Now that you've mentioned it, it shall probably stand out a mile in my upcoming reread.

As for Esme...she always strikes me as a terribly tragic figure. Perhaps a little over-compensated in this very misogynistic world, but mostly just terribly tragic.

--A

[Hiro]

Hiro, nice to see you around.

I must say I never noticed the starlight / moonlight thing. Now that you've mentioned it, it shall probably stand out a mile in my upcoming reread.

As for Esme...she always strikes me as a terribly tragic figure. Perhaps a little over-compensated in this very misogynistic world, but mostly just terribly tragic.

--A

Nice, to be back. It's SUNlight / starlight by the way, and yep, it might stand out the next time you read a scene.

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Haha, I'll make a point of letting you know.

--A

[Madness]

Always great to discover disparate discussions of Bakker across different online mediums . Apologies for this long-winded post.

Just finished my second reread of The Great Ordeal. In a word...Harrowing. The story continues to get darker and more grim. Some things more clear and others still as mysterious as ever. Can't wait for the concluding "The Unholy Consult".

Ah, another across the Abyss who knows my pain. I happen to think it's Bakker's darkest book yet short of Neuropath.

I don't see mention of it on Bakker's blog, but fans of Bakker have mentioned that he's talked about the possibility of a duology following The Unholy Consult. So the conclusion might be a bit further away than you think.

Funny enough, mining the minutia of comments at TPB is the only way to find his comments concerning this. Years and years ago, he mentioned conceiving the series as a trilogy of books, though PON became a trilogy in its own right and TAE a tetrology now. The-Series-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named (cause I think it was vogue at the time to riff off Harry Potter) is supposed to be a duology. On TPB Bakker's further obfuscated the issue by suggesting over the past couple years that he could die happy completing TAE, which he's described as "ending in a Gordian Knot."

Bakker actually surprised the Second Apocalypse forum recently dropping in on the Author Q&A subforum there and he answered this a little more explicitly in the "Conclusion of TSA" thread (though, his answer kind of blows my mind after all this time).

I also wasn't that pleased with TJE, although WLW worked a little better for me.
--A

It always boggles me but I've encountered a number of people who self-declare that they've waited since PON to read any of TAE. I honestly think they might not develop preferences regarding each subset of book within TAE. TJE is like TDTCB without any of the heavy lifting and produced under a push to make the series "more accessible." Some ARC readers at SA have suggested that WLW and TGO are two parts mirroring TWP of TAE. And now - since Bakker announced months ago that TUC will include an Expanded Glossary - TUC will likely mirror TTT.

In different ways, it strikes me that those that read along have to deal with some discomfort in that we are almost only reading sections of a larger book at a time.

I'm referring to Bakker's use of sunlight or starlight (in particular the Nail of Heavens) to backlight or halo or contrast or otherwise illuminate a character or scene in some significant-iconic-quasi-religious way. Which becomes - because of its omnipresence - slightly ridiculous the more it's used.

Lol - I don't think that is as apparent to other readers as you might think. Though, Bakker has said himself that different readers will fixate on different thematic or word use.

So still, with The Great Ordeal coming up, I'm anxious to read where the story goes from here.

Incoming reviews so far seem fairly positive, if there are some fears about how well TGO stands on its own (probably as well as WLW and not as well as TJE).

I missed it in the series, but fans and the wiki comment that the star apparently blazed brightly a couple years before the inchoroi first appeared (maybe in TTT index).

That's really unfortunate. The Wertzone did a "History of Earwa" in four parts recently as a recap for fans and an introduction of sorts to people coming new to the series. In the first piece outlining the Nonman history, Bakker gave Wert a number of tidbits probably from the upcoming Expanded Glossary. This is one.

But I don't think that was Hiro's point. I think he was simply saying that the females characters aren't as good. I'd agree with that, though I do think that Esmenet and Mimara are fascinating, well-rounded characters that Bakker seems to respect.

History itself has far fewer interesting female players (I know, I know ... that's men's fault ).

I think it's an issue of focus - in the context of this discussion, anyways (for some reason, this conversation concerning Bakker's writing gets heated elsewhere). Bakker also has this unfortunate capacity to relegate a lot of his world-building to single sentences, that are there for the careful and obsessive. For instance, in TDTCB Cnaiur's mother is referred to as owning a good portion of his father's estate in cattle, slaves, and yakshs. Proyas' mother is brought up two or three times across PON as being an eminently powerful woman in Conriya (and also the reason Achamian was dismissed for her disapproval of his teaching Proyas doubt). Istriya, in her own right, controlled the Nansur Empire for three generations of men.

Bakker's, apparently, is just not interested in featuring their explicit experiences at this time?

I think that stories which reflect this inequality are believable. It hardly even registers with me--which certainly cannot be said about the transparent attempts to 'equalize' fiction.

This is something else that bothers me when readers bring up the portrayal of Esmenet or Serwe. People tend to dismiss their experiences as unlikely or excessive when real-world examples are even more horrifying.

Cheers all.