The Dark Knight: Tomatometer 94%

[Zarathustra]

Rigel, I agree with your review. Yes, the death you talked about had zero impact. Actually, both "deaths" in the movie had very little impact. Editing throughout the entire movie was very disjointed. Many scenes ended with an abrupt, inexplicable ending. Good point about the barrels. Seems someone would have noticed.

Harb, yes, too long. Last 30 minutes are a mess.

Jenn, I thought the same thing when the word, "beautiful" was used by a certain character to describe Maggie. I almost laughed out loud.

I think it's amusing that once the hype starts to die down, people are actually seeing the flaws in this.

[Rigel]

Overall though, it's still a good movie. Just like "Batman Begins" was a good movie. But "Begins" was nowhere near the drama tour-de-force that the hype made it out to be, and neither is "Dark Knight".

I'll still preorder it on DVD, of course

[Cameraman Jenn]

I was just flipping through a gossip magazine and bam, Maggie looking fabulous at the premiere of the film. She should have dressed like that in the film....

[dANdeLION]

Speaking of flaws, how in the hell

Spoiler

was Batman able to bend that rifle barrel in the opening fight scene? He doesn't possess super-strength, and even if he did, the fat slob who was holding the gun didn't; it would have come out of his hands before it bent!

[Harbinger]

That was rather Bugs Bunnyish wasn't it. Batman begins was a better movie.

[Zarathustra]

That was rather Bugs Bunnyish wasn't it. Batman begins was a better movie.

Absolutely . . . though Joker was a better villain.

[Brinn]

From Supervising Sound Editor Richard King:

There are lots of high-tech gadgets in the film, from components of the Batsuit, to various weapons. One of King's favorites is “a superpowerful hydraulic device that fits inside [Batman's] hand, so powerful that he can, say, bend the barrel of a gun. We don't need to understand how it works, but we have to make it sound cool and also believable. Remember, Batman's no superman; he's a very clever guy whose arsenal of devices allows him to do superhuman things.”

I remember that scene and I thought I saw something in his hand that appeared mechanical.

[Zarathustra]

Brinn, I thought something like that was the explanation, but Dan is right about the other guy holding it.

[Sunbaneglasses]

Yes, The Joker was good................but......all in all I thought it was a convoluted, uninspiring, over hyped mess. No sir, I didn't care for it and I wish that I had my 8 bucks and 2 1/2 hours back. I got quite bored with it part of the way through and started wishing that I was in the theater down the hall watching Hellboy II for the second time.

[Kil Tyme]

Alright Sunbane! I was getting worried I was the only one thinking the same thing. Hellboy II was much better for my bucks.

[dANdeLION]

I loved HB II, and liked this flick a lot, despite the flaws. But, the one I think I most want to see a second time is Iron Man.

[Zarathustra]

And you guys thought I was paranoid. This guy's take on TDK is downright political. Though I wasn't paranoid enough to make these connections as I watched it, in retrospect I can see some of analogies with liberal guilt over becoming the thing you are fighting. Check it out:

link

[Rigel]

That review shows how easy it is to win against a Straw Man.

[lucimay]

oh. my. god. liberal guilt over becoming the thing you are???? *shakes head* where did THAT come from????

am i now, because i am basically liberal in my thinking, supposed to feel GUILTY over becoming the thing i am??? what????

what clap trap!


IT'S A BATMAN MOVIE PEOPLE!!!

[Zarathustra]

Luci, it was "become the thing you are fighting." You left off that last word. And that message was explicit in this movie, whether we're talking about Batman or Dent. (Heck, it's right there in Dent's seminal quote from the trailer.) And, it's also something we hear from liberals whether we're talking about collateral damage, preemptive strikes, "illegal" behind-the-scenes attacks, or harsh interrogation techniques (all of which were in the Batman movie--so it's not exactly a straw man, Rigel).

Instead, it offers up a lot of moralistic waffle about how we must hug a terrorist - okay, I exaggerate. At its heart, however, is a long and tedious discussion about how individuals and society must never abandon the rule of law in struggling against the forces of lawlessness. In fighting monsters, we must be careful not to become monsters - that sort of thing. The film champions the antiwar coalition’s claim that, in having a war on terror, you create the conditions for more terror. We are shown that innocent people died because of Batman - and he falls for it. Here is a Batman consumed with liberal guilt and self-loathing. I wanted to scream: “No, you Guardian-reading freak, don’t you see? It’s the Joker’s fault, not yours.” But I knew I would never reach him, for today’s heroes want to be zeroes.

If liberals are going to be consistent, they'd have to be just like the citizens who were calling for

Spoiler

Batman to turn himself in.

They'd have to complain that Batman's interrogation violated the Geneva convention. But I'm betting not one of you even noticed that this hero violated your own deep beliefs on torture. When it comes to someone you like, someone you're cheering for (as opposed to Bush), these things are justified.

I don't mean to derail this thread with a political argument. But it's a valid way to interpret the movie. 9/11 imagery and implications were all over the place in that movie.

[lucimay]

dude. it's a freakin comic book movie. whatever you get from it you get from it. that's art. but i soooooo DIDN'T get any of that from it.

call me a shallow ditz, but i wasn't there for messages!!

and...i think that a bit of over-politicization (if there is such a word.)

[Zarathustra]

Luci, I didn't get all that stuff at first, either. But I think in a way it elevates the movie to find these deeper issues within it, even if I disagree with the message.

Just because we both missed it doesn't mean it wasn't there, or that it's not intentional. It's basically the "moral" of this story. They repeated it over and over, nearly every character. Think about Fox's righteous indignation to the sonar technique Batman used at the end. Patriot Act, anyone? Like I said, nearly all the characters are used to preach this message. I'm shocked I missed it, actually.

[Rigel]

Nah, becoming a monster has been a common theme in media since Nietzche popularized the concept in the late 19th century (and it was popular among philosophers before that).

I'm fine with that because it's a valid concern, and adds some real depth compared to most "pure" action movies.

The Straw Man I was referring to was the 9/11 analogy. I honestly didn't make the connection in the film, and the arguments for it in that review were pretty flimsy.

Kind of like how people complained about Jar Jar being a put-down to Jamaicans. While those people were insulted by his performance, most people thought the connection was unwarranted.

Anyway, relating what you see in movies with your own ideas and experiences is perfectly valid. But if you're going to write about that connection, you should at least be honest about how much evidence there is for it. Superman IV might be the most tragic movie ever for you personally because of that time you had to throw your twin into the sun, but for most of us it was laughable.

Likewise, I don't think The Dark Knight was trying to directly reference 9/11 simply because they used aerial shots and urban terror. Rather, I think the film makers thought about what would make a scary criminal, and wrote the Joker to fit that.

[Zarathustra]

I don't think the 9/11 connection is as flimsy as you're saying. Google "batman 9/11." You'll get hundreds of hits. The first link makes the argument much better than the last article.

www.alternet.org/movies/92385/batman's_ ... rmongering

Many reviewers have already noted that the film is commenting on the "war on terror," and audiences were surely meant to revisit their own painful memories of 9/11 by the chilling advance posters for the film, which feature Batman standing before a skyscraper in which a gigantic flaming gash in the shape of a bat has been blasted. Cues evoking 9/11 build from the opening frames, which propel the viewer into a dark swirling cloud of smoke and then to an aerial shot flying us towards a glass building, through to a series of escalating depictions of urban chaos and destruction. Buildings implode, thousands of people flee Gotham city on foot, and at one point Batman broods in the foreground while firefighters struggle to contain fires amid twisted steel columns. Unlike any other superhero film ever made, The Dark Knight is set in a world of realism we -- sadly -- know only too well.

In an early scene, when Batman's alter-ego Bruce Wayne (Christian Bale) and District Attorney Harvey Dent (Aaron Eckhart), discuss the merits of having one strong man take responsibility for defending society against evil, Rachel Dawes (Maggie Gyllenhaal) reminds them that when Rome made that choice, it resulted in a dictatorship.

I can't get the link thing to work. Cut and paste. That article is worth the read. There are many more examples, but I didn't want to post massive spoilers. The ferry test is really telling. Think about the detainees at Guantanamo. Think about the, "let's kill these thugs before they kill us," and what comment Nolan makes on this sentiment.

[Cail]

Meh. I futzed with it too, I can't get it to work.