Integrity

[Prebe]

Prebe, the key point is that we ALL (including YOU) build our lives around what we believe to be true.

Of course. But not saying grace before dinner time is not going to instill atheist ideas into my kids head.

And there you go with your "true" again. I build my life around what makes sense given my empirical observations. I don't use the word truth, because I don't know what it means, and much less if it applies at all.

Edit: As usual I think it is counter intuitive to argue that not adapting a religious faith is a "belief".

[Cybrweez]

prebe, the agnostic or atheist may not put one religion over another, instead, they put having no religion above having one. It doesn't have to be overt. I mean, I could be wrong, but I don't imagine malik posting such anti-christian messages here, then turning to his kids, and saying, now, the bible teaches that you are to love one another as yourself, and the greatest way of showing it is to lay down your life for another, and that if you love Jesus, you'll obey His commandment.

And no matter what my son winds up participating in, I'm going to ask why. Whether it be christian or not. I know the atheists here assume all christians force their children to believe in the bible, but, that just shows a naivete. The bible says only YOU can determine to repent and trust.

[Prebe]

but I don't imagine malik posting such anti-christian messages here, then turning to his kids, and saying, now, the bible teaches that you are to love one another as yourself, and the greatest way of showing it is to lay down your life for another, and that if you love Jesus, you'll obey His commandment.

Oh I'm sure he does. But I'm equally sure he remembers to tell them that the bible also teaches you that you stone adulterers, and that a badass mofo with snakes for tungs is going to herrald the end of the world.

[rusmeister]

prebe, the agnostic or atheist may not put one religion over another, instead, they put having no religion above having one. It doesn't have to be overt.

And no matter what my son winds up participating in, I'm going to ask why. Whether it be christian or not. I know the atheists here assume all christians force their children to believe in the bible, but, that just shows a naivete. The bible says only YOU can determine to repent and trust.

Two quick things - on the first, it is true that it doesn't have to be overt or spoken in words. It is how you live your life, your attitude towards death, etc, what your children pick up from you over the years, so Cyberweez's point is valid.

On the second, again, C is right - it is not a question of FORCING the children to believe. We know that they are going to make their own decision as adults. Upbringing and mature, personal choice are two different things and need to be carefully distinguished from each other. We're simply talking about bringing up children in the way they should go - and that means not just talk, but how we, the parents, live our own lives. We know that "Monkey see, monkey do" and that actions speak louder than words. We can only hope they will see that their parents really WERE right when they grow up. They will make their own choice, and an upbringing of faith is no guarantee that the mature adult will choose that faith, anymore than an atheistic upbringing is insurance against becoming a dogmatic Christian (whether of the reasoning type or not). Most of us (excluding certain Calvinistic types) do acknowledge free will - including that of children. But until they're grown up, we're going to teach them, love them, spank them...and bring them up in the way they should go - and that includes keeping them from the ways that they shouldn't go.

[wayfriend]

Prebe, the key point is that we ALL (including YOU) build our lives around what we believe to be true.

Of course. But not saying grace before dinner time is not going to instill atheist ideas into my kids head.

To (I hope) follow up on what Prebe is saying... Atheists don't go to atheist meetings, they don't participate in atheist rituals, they don't organize atheistic activities, they don't form atheistic orgnizations, they don't collect money to support atheism, they don't watch preachers preaching atheism on TV, etc. Atheism is a LOT less intrusive in ones life than a god-believing religion - it has no execution. So theres's nothing for children to absorb.

But, to be fair, atheists can be as vocal about how right they are as anyone else. And children can absorb that.

Unfortunately, being a non-atheist, I cannot help how much antipathy towards your fellow man is instilled along with the athism. Most people are religious. So how do you prevent your children from growing up thinking that most people are stupid believers in non-sense? Even when you don't say it, you convey it.

All those rituals and things are at least positive. They're not about saying that everyone else is wrong, kids can also grow to understand what a religion does for you. It's not all negative.

[Prebe]

I think you've pinned it down pretty well Wayfriend. That's exactly what I mean. I do, however, agree that of course a child is going to grow up with less likelihood of becomming religious if he is broad up in a non-beliving household.

Unfortunately, being a non-atheist, I cannot help how much antipathy towards your fellow man is instilled along with the athism.

As for the bias, I plan to do my best to explain that (most) religious people are not stupid. I will tell my son that the bible was written by human beings who thought they were getting it from God. When he asks "Who is God?" I'll answer that there are many different versions of him, but that there has been no version so far that I would subscribe to.

And when he get's old enough I'll introduce him to the religious texts of the dominating religions of our world (Christianity and Islam in these parts) as I firmly believe that reading these texts will put him off religion as it has me.

[Cybrweez]

wayfriend, altho not to the same extent, their is such atheist groups, meetings, and listening to preaching. Have you heard of Richard Dawkins? Maybe they just need more time...

[Prebe]

Maybe they just need more time...

Yes, yes. That's right. We just need more time. Proselytism is necessary, maybe even war. We'll meet atop the baricades weilding flaming swords.

[Avatar]

Only the believers get flaming swords Prebe.

Seriously though, that's part of the problem...atheists are rarely willing to go such extremes for their lack of belief. You don't find them in the streets trying to convince people that they don't need to be saved.

--A

[Cybrweez]

No, you find them on message boards.

[Avatar]

Sure, but proportionately less...you can find anyone on message boards.

Sorry, with only 0.4% of the US population identifying themselves as atheist, I don't think you'll convince me that they're a threat to christianity.

--A

[Prebe]

Only the believers get flaming swords Prebe.

Rats! Why does it have to be so boring to be an atheist?

[Avatar]

You can have a slide-rule.

(We could douse it in petrol if you really want. )

--A

[Prebe]

LOL

[Cybrweez]

Av, I don't really trust polls, and .4% atheists is one reason why.

Besides, if you're familiar w/this country, the numbers that agree with your cause has nothing to do with the vocality of that cause. You don't need numbers to make noise.

[rusmeister]

Yeah. Atheists don't work alone against Christianity. They cheerfully cooperate with agnostics and people who don't take faith seriously to pass legislation stepping all over it.

[Avatar]

I wouldn't call them polls 'Weez.

The data comes from the 2001 study, the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS), by Barry A. Kosmin, Egon Mayer, and Ariela Keysar at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. Link

And while I certainly agree that you don't need numbers to make noise, I also don't think that noise alone is meaningful. I'm sure that you wouldn't call vocal minorities within your religion representative either.

See, it's the whole "working against christianity" that I don't get. I'm an atheist, and I'm not working against christianity. And I suspect that most atheists aren't either. I suspect that most of them can't be bothered.

--A

[Kinslaughterer]

Many Christians have this odd "presecution" syndrome. Anything that isn't explictly Christian must therefore be decidely anti-Christian. Seeing a mosque in an urban area? Anti-christian. Talking about other religions or ones own atheism? Anti-christian. Discussing history and factual information that questions any aspect of Christianity? Clearly anti-christian.

What's really great, millions of people are actually hoping that I will suffer greatly and be cast into a lake of fire because I don't believe. That's awesome. What I'm most upset about is that I won't be able to collect on my bets once I die and see what really happens.

[Cybrweez]

Well, all I can say is that kins is certainly an objective viewer of christians. He paints an accurate picture.

[SoulBiter]

I dont know of any Christian that wants anyone thrown into the lake of fire. Matter of fact, the mission that Christ followers have is to spread the word so that the lake of fire is no ones destiny.

"Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." - Matthew 28:20

And you must love the Lord God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength. The second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' No other commandment is greater than these.."- Mark 12:30-31

So someone who is following Christ and doing as he asked us to do will NOT want anyone to go to the lake of fire and should love our neighbor as ourselves. It doesnt say our 'Christian neighbor'. Christ made no distiction. That love that we have for our neighbor (as ourselves) means that we should be doing what we can to let ALL people know that there is a way to avoid the lake of fire. Belief in Christ as the son of God. Belief that he died on the cross for us (taking the punishment for our sins on himself) so that we dont have to go to the lake of fire. Its as simple as that.

As far as Christians feeling that there are those working against Christianity... Im sure there are some that do feel that way. Just as Im sure there are some people that do work against Christianity. But I dont think its some HUGE conspiracy to wipe Christianity off the map.

I hope no one takes any of this as preaching.. It isnt. I dont think Kins was a very accurate picture of Christianity. Its just a perception of it.

Christianity isnt about hate.. its about love