What is it you believe?

[Marv]

Socrates said "the unexamined life is not worth living". thats what exsistentialism is about. not "do what you feel like and it's all good". one should question everything because everything is subjective. the attempt to understand one's own reasons for acting and not doing something just because you can or without thought.

[Loredoctor]

I believe everything is objective - or, I take a reductionist approach: that everything subjective, or that exists, can be broken down to understandable units. Even - sit on your seats gentlemen - opinions.

[Avatar]

Of course opinions can be broken down into understandable pieces. That's exactly why I debate. Not to change peoples minds, but to understand why they feel the way they do.

--A

[Zahir]

I believe that we use the word "God" for the mystery out of which we arise. Using that word is misleading, but we're human. We have to use words. That mystery is not unknowable. It can be directly experienced. But the experience is close-to-incomprehensible, so we are forced to use metaphor and other inadequate tools in an attempt to pass on what has been learned.

I am a Christian, that is, I accept that Jesus was a human incarnation of the divine. I believe his coming had three general purposes:

1. To teach.
2. To partake of our troubles, thus demonstrating and earning our love.
3. To change humanity (for if God becomes flesh, then flesh can never agaian be the same--ditto for death).

I accept the Bible as the Word of God, but then I view the whole cosmos as the Word of God (or perhaps more accurately, I think of the universe as the dance God is dancing). But in and of itself, the Bible lends itself to too many varying interpretations (and look how many "literal" interpretations of the Bible there are!).

At heart, I believe faith and spirituality are about growth of the self far beyond the limits of what we conventionally experience. It is not about rule books on which genetalia are allowed to what, when. The Bible is not a primarily a law book, just as it is not in any conventional sense a science book. Hence there is no conflict between Faith and Science (any more than there is a conflict between Aesthetics and Science).

I believe in God for the same reason I believe in love--because I have experienced both.

One of my favorite quotes about faith is this: "God loves everyone--whether you like it or not." I take that literally.

[Avatar]

Excellent post Zahir. Just goes to show...I don't think I would have guessed you were a Christian.

Regardless, this is the type of interpretation of god and faith that I like. It's not exclusionary, it's not prescriptive.

I even agree that Jesus was an incarnation of whatever is divine. But then, I think every human is.

--A

[lucimay]

At heart, I believe faith and spirituality are about growth of the self far beyond the limits of what we conventionally experience. It is not about rule books on which genetalia are allowed to what, when. The Bible is not a primarily a law book, just as it is not in any conventional sense a science book. Hence there is no conflict between Faith and Science (any more than there is a conflict between Aesthetics and Science).

very excellent post, Zahir. although i don't practice christianity our spirituality converges here...at the above quoted point.

I believe in God for the same reason I believe in love--because I have experienced both.

for my own part, i believe in Grace for the same reason i believe in love--because i have experienced both.


truly your post is one of the most eloquent professions of faith i've ever read.

[The Laughing Man]

I believe that we use the word "God" for the mystery out of which we arise. Using that word is misleading, but we're human. We have to use words. That mystery is not unknowable. It can be directly experienced. But the experience is close-to-incomprehensible, so we are forced to use metaphor and other inadequate tools in an attempt to pass on what has been learned.

While I stood there, I saw more than I can tell, and understood more than I saw; for I was seeing in a sacred manner the shapes of all things in the spirit, and the shapes of all things as they must live together like one being. Black Elk - Ogalala

• 

What I am trying to say is hard to tell and hard to understand....unless, unless....you have been yourself at the edge of the Deep Canyon and have come back unharmed. Maybe it all depends on something within yourself - whether you are trying to see the Watersnake, or the sacred Cornflower, whether you go out to meet death or to Seek Life. - An Elder of the San Juan Pueblo

The interruption of that flow of continuity that makes the world understandable to us is sorcery. You journey through the dark sea of awareness (*Deep Canyon), you see people as they are, engaged in people's business. And then you see the strand of energy that joins specific lines of human beings. You witness something specific and inexplicable. You understood what people are saying, without knowing their language, and you see the strand of energy that connects human beings to certain other beings, and you select those aspects through an act of intending it. This intending is not something conscious or volitional; this intending is done at a deep level, and is ruled by necessity. You need to become cognizant of some of the possibilities of journeying through the dark sea of awareness, and inner silence guides intent;a perennial force in the universe; to fulfill that need. Don Juan Matus - The Active Side of Infinity

[Zahir]

Thank you.

[Fist and Faith]

I accept the Bible as the Word of God, but then I view the whole cosmos as the Word of God (or perhaps more accurately, I think of the universe as the dance God is dancing).

I can't pass up the opportunity to post this quote again. It's from A Wizard of Earthsea. When the wizard, Ged, explains to a girl that light is a great power, she asks, if it is not a secret, what other great powers there are.

"It is no secret. All power is one in source and end, I think. Years and distances, stars and candles, water and wind and wizardry, the craft in a man's hand and the wisdom in a tree's root: they all arise together. My name, and yours, and the true name of the sun, or a spring of water, or an unborn child, all are syllables of the great word that is very slowly spoken by the shining of the stars. There is no other power. No other name."

Esmer, that looks like Susan Seddon Boulet?

[The Laughing Man]

yes Fist, she is truly an artist that moves me in places I don't know I have! I only have one of her books, but I find her stuff everywhere on the net. (mostly for greeting cards and calendars, somehow that seems to degrade her work to me, for I feel her work is truly "inspired divine"). and great quote, btw.

[Fist and Faith]

SSB moves me the same way. I'm not at all knowledgable about artists, but she is among my favorite few, with Escher and Monet.

[Zarathustra]

I view the whole cosmos as the Word of God (or perhaps more accurately, I think of the universe as the dance God is dancing).

What about the rape and murder of children? Is that God dancing, too?

I'm not trying to be a smartass or denigrate your beliefs. I ask it in complete seriousness, because it is precisely things like this which convinced me that any literal God does not exist. But then, you don't sound like the kind of person who believes in a literal, "God." So I do recognize the your views are perhaps complex enough to meet my criticism.

The "typical" answer I imagine most Christians would make is that, no, that's not an example of God dancing, but rather Satan. But in this case, the universe couldn't really be described as the dance God is dancing. It would be more like a Tango between God and Satan.

Personally, I'm agnostic. My reason tells me there can't possibly be a God responsible for bringing such a messed-up place into being. But my experiences have made me doubt my reason. If there is a God (whatever that word ends up meaning), I think He is beyond good and evil.

[Zahir]

Yes, that is part of the dance that is the universe.

The essential mystical fact about the physical universe is that everything is separate. Because of that, we are cursed with fear and desire (which are unavoidable, but only the other hand we don't have to give in to them totally--we don't all have to be greedy cowards). Yet because we are separate we also have the opportunity to develop compassion and loyalty.

Without this separation--which in turn brings about all suffering--then the universe would not exist. The purpose of the universe--the enlightment gained from separation--would be impossible.

But with separation, comes all the opportunity for every horrible thing that can possibly happen. But God (or whatever you want to call this mystery) manifested the universe and in doing so created all the glory, all the torture, all the kindness and cruelty, every single crime and good deed, every scream of joy or terror. All part of the same package.

Look at it another way. Life is full of pain and disappointments, yet there is pleasure and surprise and wonders to take the breath away. Each of us sooner or later faces the question--is life worth it? Am I willing to endure the agonies of life for the ecstasies of it? If your answer is "Yes," then you've made exactly the same decision that God did.

[Fist and Faith]

The other option being for God to create a universe where everything that happens is good. There would be no such thing as morality, and we wouldn't get to make choices.

Second, have you ever noticed how good it feels to be healthy just after sickness? (Anybody know Beethoven's Heileger Dankgesang?) Or, for those of us in temperate climates, how wonderful spring is after winter? Even after you've seen 42 springs? If we were always healthy, we wouldn't have the word healthy or sick. The concept of health would be meaningless, and it would never have come up. If it was always spring, we wouldn't have the words spring, or winter, or seasons.

[Avatar]

Great post Zahir. And agreed Fist...if you couldn't contrast it, you wouldn't appreciate it at all, because there wouldn't be anything different.

--A

[Loredoctor]

If there is a God (whatever that word ends up meaning), I think He is beyond good and evil.

The novel Starmaker comes to mind.

[ur-monkey]

I believe in believing in believing.

[Chassit]

I did the Belief-O-Matic about a year ago. It says I'm a Sikh.

I'm actually a little bit agnostic. I mean, I do believe in a Creator, that I call God. I think the Christians and Jews and Buddhists all have a different take on Who this Creator is, but they also all have pieces of the puzzle.

I've had too much happen in my life for me to not believe in God. Also, on the rare occasions when I question His existence, it frightens me to contemplate a world without God. So while most of it for me is knowing I believe, a tiny part is wanting to believe.

There's a lot more to it, but I'll leave it at that for now.

[spacemonkey]

Well, Avatar did level a challenge, so here goes. I only ask that this is read with an open mind, as I have done through many of everyone else’s posts. I don’t seek anything other than the experience of sharing with many of you who I look forward to bantering with everyday. Many times I have stuck some really dumb ideas out here and was promptly told so. In the lightheartedness that I seen amongst most here I think it will probably throw a few of you guys for a loop……..


Yes, there is a God, I have given a great amount of thought to this and came to these conclusions many years ago.
First, creation theory, here is some really wild ideas that set my troubled mind to rest. When God created Man, He took from the “dust” of the earth. When God was explaining these facts to Moses he had to take into account that Moses was basically uneducated. Moses had no concept of simple proteins, of DNA. So, to the uneducated these things would appear as “dust”, simple molecules from which all life sprang forth. When ever God acted upon anything here on Earth, there was generally one supernatural event, the rest was plain everyday physics, chemistry, ordinary science. For example, the plagues of Egypt, two supernatural events took place, the rest were natural in origin. The first being that all the water turned to blood. After that, what came next? Flies. Blood will attract flies, afterwards came the frogs, with flies the frogs come looking for a free meal. And so on, I didn’t think we needed another sermon on Moses, not today. The final supernatural event was the spirit of Death that killed all the first born in Egypt. Now the general churches state that the Earth is no more than 6000 years old. Science has already proven this misconception false. Time doesn’t matter to God, the bible states that “A day is as a thousand years and a thousand years are as a day with God.” When God created the universe, He said, “ Let there be light.” The light was the creation of the universe from that basketball size of matter floating in the nothing that was. Stephen Hawking related to this saying that the amount of light upon the universe being born was beyond phenomenal. Such light has never been since that moment in time and space. My point here is that science is nothing more than the beginning of understanding of what God has done. How God did these things, and also the very beginning of just scratching the surface of how the universe ticks.

Now it gets strange, my Dad’s side of the family is Irish, Pagan Irish at that. The Pagan line goes way back to 521 a.d. I think, if memory serves correctly here. Paganism is in my blood. I can look at tree, for example, and truly feel the tree’s power emanating from it. The older trees seem to demand veneration, not worship, just veneration, respect for their age if nothing else. Mountains, wow, those guys exude power on anunbelievably vast scale, probably why I like rock climbing so much. Man, those guys radiate age, power, and immovability like nothing else. I grew up in Miami, Florida, for the most part. The ocean, heh, well now there’s a being with power so vast that mortals will never understand. The sea is a very unforgiving mistress, very loving, very cold at times. I would know, I nearly died there four separate times. The life under the surface is enough to immobilize your psyche if you’re not careful. There is so much there that it’s hard to say that there is anywhere on this rock that compares to it. For a time I am become as one with her, scuba diving, free style diving, surfing, to be one with that much power is truly intoxicating. Maybe that’s why it can only be done for so long. There’s lots more, but we have still yet more to go.

My Mother is Native American Indian, Cherokee to be exact. For a time I lived on the reservation with my mother’s family while Dad was out fighting wars. My Grandfather taught me the old ways, the ways of the Shaman as was my birthright. He taught me of the Great Spirit, the Great Eagles, of spirits to help when in need. To call forth spirits of loved ones long gone, spirits who could answer many questions. The memories there are very hallucinogenic in nature, yes, it was given to me at the age of 6. My Grandfather taught me that not all spirits were here to help, many were angry, some were demons, my visions were to help guide my paths, to be able to know which could be trusted, which could not be trusted. I know of many things in this that needs not be discussed here. Grandfather also taught me that many horrible things will come, bear up as a true shaman, none could touch me, my power was greater than theirs.

Even stranger now, In my youth I discovered the Wiccan way of life. Harm none, seek to bind only, that which you put forth will come back to you sevenfold. I quickly learned that Wiccans were not too far off from Pagans, almost the same, but not. Here I learned of Manon, the stage for all that was, is, and ever will be. The power within Manon was neither good, nor evil, those portions came from your own soul. Be careful, mindful of what you loose here on this plane of existence. As these things will come back to you, if you are not willing to pay the price, they’re better left alone. Unlike the Pagans, Wiccans were able to call forth power from that which was around them, Pagans observed only.

Deeper yet…… When I was sixteen, I was traveling by plane to Missouri I think it was, a man whom I did not know approached me with a book. The book he explained was a gift. By now it was painfully obvious that the man was Hindi. He told me he felt that I needed the book to help further my journey in life, he handed me this book and went about his merry way after giving me a strange bow. The book explained Hinduism in it’s entirety, from that I learned of Lord Genesh, Lord Shiva, the way the Hindi viewed death, life, and most of all patience. The greatest lesson I learned was TOLERANCE. This above all was the most important. Tolerance to all, to be and let be. Ghandi was a true Magi in life, I still respect him to this day.

Further down…………. My Dad and I parted ways that were not of the best circumstances, in anger. He died before we could patch things up with each other, I never saw him alive again after that day. After his funeral I went home, brokenhearted, still confused. I had so many questions that only he could answer. There always seemed to be Time, in which we could talk. There was nothing further from the truth. Some three days later, while I was asleep, Dad came to me and talked, talked about all that I needed answers for. I asked him why, why did you leave before we could set things right? His response was simple. “ My boys no longer needed me. You guys grew up. I always told you kids I was living on borrowed time. My time is up. Your time is just beginning, you have much still to do.” Many other things were discussed for three nights, there was no doubt this was my Dad. He further told me, “You can still come and see me, if you really want to, in your dreams.” This also proved true, about a year later I was lonesome for Dad and went to sleep. Sure enough, I found him, in his house with people that I have not seen since I was very small. I knew all of them, they all greeted me warmly and told me Dad was upstairs. I went upstairs and there was Dad, sitting and having the time of his after-life. He said with much joy,” See, I told you guys he would find me! Come and sit son, let’s talk……” This didn’t bother me, it felt natural. I still called my younger brother about all of this, thinking maybe I was going crazy. He broke down and cried on the phone. My brother told me that what I had just told him Dad had written in a letter and left in his old car that my brother had only found that afternoon. It was near verbatim, I still see Dad every now and then.


Sorry for the length of the post, but Avatar did level a challenge. Understand this, I seek not to dissuade or persuade any from their choice of faith or no faith in God. My experiences may be unique in many aspects. I have learned another thing, all religions or faiths cannot be all right or all wrong, there is a truth in all of them. Maybe if we all acknowledge this maybe the world would be a better place………………………spacemonkey.

[Avatar]

Thanks for sharing that great post SpaceMonkey. A long and varied spiritual life you've led, and in many respects, one that resonates with the parts of me that would like to believe that much of what you perceive exists.

I too dabbled in many religions, searching, testing, keeping, discarding and moving on.

And indeed, there are many ideas of spirituality that I would like to be true.

(This is why I call myself a practical atheist. Some of those ideas, (particularly the more pagan, animistic ones), are ones that I really like. That speak to my belief that the world is an amazing place (because it is).

In the end though, there is one great requirement of spirituality that I lack pretty much utterly. And that is faith.

I like to believe all those things...karma...reincarnation...justice. But I see no temporal evidence for them, and so cannot really believe.

That said, I certainly share your belief that no way is entirely right or wrong. I see value in all belief systems. But they are, to me, social truths. Or philosophical or moral truths. Or psychological ones. And for me, that's more than good enough.

Great post.

--A