Proof of God

[jelerak]

I believe that it is the religious groups intent to keep promoting the fear of the 'end of the world'. Their benefit is that by keeping everyone afraid, it will keep them tighter in their grasps, and maybe bring a few more sheep into the fold.

After all, the more members of the congregation, the more $$$ to the bottom line.

[Worm of Despite]

Well, there's more than just the will of some preachers to make money; the Commandments, the warning of "heaven or hell", etc., are all driving factors that keeps people obeying some very important, fundamental laws that hold the social and economic glue together.

Some of the Bible's teachings, like those on homosexuality, hold less importance for our survival than they did for the early Hebrews, who had a small population and warned against not procreating (please correct me if I'm wrong). The Hebrews didn't just go "Homosexuality! Ew!" There's a logical reason behind this. These were intelligent people with a motive. Condemning homosexuality made practical sense then; it makes none now. Perhaps the prejudice toward homosexuals would've been dropped when the need for such a social tool no longer existed, but, since that particular teaching is in the Bible, it gets carried over/given value to/passed on.

[lurch]

...Sorry,,i ain't buying the Last Days bit. Heard it when I was a kid, and am glad I didn't bite on that hook then. Now that I am in the autumn of life sure am glad i didn't spend my spring and summer shackled by the fear inducing 4 horses of armageddon crap.
...From one with perspective..LIFE HAS GOTTEN BETTER!!..YEAAA, THATS RIGHT!! LIFE HAS GOTTEN BETTER. Mans understanding of himself, his planet, his solar sysytem, his universe has expanded more in the last 50 years than during ALL previous. Suggest a more varied approach to selection of media input. ..There are no garuantees in life, yet amazing efforts have succeeded in overcoming disease, ignorance, etc.
...ANYBODY can say these are the last days..but how many can say, i just improved somebody's life,,I have an Idea,,I have a solution..I am working on a solution....etc?..Suggest removing ones thoughts from the dark ages and join the modern era. There comes a time...as with all text books and studies...when one must put them down and go live life. there comes a time,,as with all teachers..one must walk away from the preachers and go live ones own life. Life is for the LIVING.
...the last Days..!!??...thats Kevins Dirt...thats the Harachi cutting off two of their fingers..Life is what you make it..and you just may be right about the Last days,,as the tears of your depression blind you to the stop sign you just ran thru and the car you are about to collide with...Give your self a break,,let it go........MEL

[Cail]

I'd like to make an observation here.

Everyone on the Watch who has identified themselves as a Christian has been warm and welcoming, and has gone to great lengths to explain their position without sounding holier-than-thou or insulting, or belittling those who disagree with them.

Lurch, this is in sharp contrasts to your posts. I will defend to the death your right to believe whatever you want to believe, but your posts on this board mirror what most people accuse Christians of doing.

<stepping off soapbox>

[Baradakas]

There is a difference Mel. I do live my life, and a happy one it is. Due to the things I know, I treasure every day as if it were my last, with an awesome appreciation of everything God has given us. I love God, myself and my fellow man more because of it.

However. I will not close my eyes to the truth, written in mile-high letters under my nose. I will remain aware of our present age, and the calamities presently threatening it. I will also remember that these present threats to our way of life were all the fault of mankind, and keep in mind the best part of the christian message. GOD IS COMING TO SAVE US FROM OURSELVES!!! Yes, a true christian reminds himself that terrible times are coming, but more than that, he remembers that these times MUST come before the return of Christ and the Millenium, and the promise of a world without hate, war, depravity, disease or death.

I think that is worth believing in.



Cail, thank you for your input. I admit that I can come off a bit fanatical sometimes, and I feel I somewhat prompted Lurch's response. Again, we mods expect everyone to treat each other as they would like to be treated, and occasionally I *almost* forget to tailor my posts so as not to cause "posting inflammation".

-B

[Worm of Despite]

I'd like to make an observation here.

Everyone on the Watch who has identified themselves as a Christian has been warm and welcoming, and has gone to great lengths to explain their position without sounding holier-than-thou or insulting, or belittling those who disagree with them.

Lurch, this is in sharp contrasts to your posts. I will defend to the death your right to believe whatever you want to believe, but your posts on this board mirror what most people accuse Christians of doing.

<stepping off soapbox>

Regardless of any hostility Lurch exhibits, his points still stand (and I agree with some of them, myself).

Also, I think it should be noted that both camps--theist and atheist--have those who belittle and have the "holier-than-thou" complex. No one group is free of either shortcoming.

That said, the people at the Watch are a fine bunch, theist and atheist alike. But, one must admit that the Watch is a bit of a utopia. In my experience, I find that it's hardly representative of the real world (at least, as far as the South goes).

[Baradakas]

In my experience, I find that it's hardly representative of the real world (at least, as far as the South goes).

Or even other message boards, frankly.

-B

[Fist and Faith]

I'm told Spain had an extremely good religious atmosphere when it was ruled by the Muslims, uh, hundreds of years ago. All could worship however they wanted.

[lurch]

..To Cail..Quite Rite!,,everybody is entitled to their observations. Care for more of mine?..i'll warn you now..you know whats coming,you can stop reading now to save any affrontery to your faith..,You've argued your points till blue in theface many times in your life, haven't you?
...I am sadden to see you using the ' Us versus you" ploy so early. the thread isn't about proof of Cails God,,its about proof of God. I have offered proof of God,,that is alot more substantial,,as proof goes,, than what you have offerd..you are affronted by it not being proof of Cails God.?
...You also show signs of resorting to the tried and true..being victimized..I was led to believe by non other than yourself, that your faith was of a such strength,,that a couple of opinions and observations from a provacature,,(yes,,I confess that i post to get folks to think,,not to placate them..so when i see someone propagating ,,and propagating,,and even more propagating of The Proof..without one bit of Logic ,,well yes,,i tend to get provacative myself.),,wouldn't be of concern,,but I stand corrected on that. Thank You for clearing that up...So, its fair to ask or observe then,,how is it that your faith with your God isn't suffice. How is it that your God is to be everybodys. Does your God only exist when in the realm of multiple? On the singular level,,its not good enough to be just between you and Him..I mean..there is no proof required when its at the singular level..but when you decide to take it to multiple..you really believe no proof is still required?.The fact that a group believes what the Preachers is preaching, is validation of Proof?.and if modern society is being more logical,,then you claim the rights of the Victim? How convenient. you put yourself up on the cross,,then hammer in the nails..then scream you are a victim. What ever turns you on...just remember, I don't deny whatever you have between yourself and your God..Thats your business. But when you try to sell your business to me or any other..you are just another door to door salesman..
...I have no problem with folks saying whatever they chuse about me. If its done very well to excellent, great.!..but ..i have a problem with your post Cail..its indicative of loss of steam on your part,,and I had hoped for better...MEL

[Sheol]

I hear that in France that Jesus is really big. He is like the coca-cola of France. And not only that, everybody seems to get along fine no matter the religion. I also heard that they have photos of Jesus, they have photos.

[Kymbierlee]

And yet you hear so many Americans belittling the French for refusing to become involved in Bush's war. I know this will set fire to some members of the right here, but I ADMIRE the French for staying out of it. I think they have a great culture, and I would love to visit there and learn more.

[Sheol]

I may have a few....... crass thoughts about the French and as much as I like to express those I think I will stick to the topoc at hand.

[dennisrwood]

no offense, but we're casting some pearls here folks. it would be better to live our lives as a reflection of Christ then beat the 'End Times' drums. seems every generation believes they are living the end times. it's not for us to know.

[Avatar]

Cail, thank you for your input. I admit that I can come off a bit fanatical sometimes, and I feel I somewhat prompted Lurch's response...occasionally I *almost* forget to tailor my posts so as not to cause "posting inflammation".

In my opinion, you do a pretty good job. Certainly I've never found your posts particularly inflammatory, and certainly no more so than my own, for example. Sure, you're a fanatic, but at least not a rabid one.

...Again, we mods expect everyone to treat each other as they would like to be treated...

Exactly. And as we all know, there are ways of saying things, and then there are ways.

Lurch -- As an unbeliever myself, and one who has frequently debated these issues with Cail, and other christians, here at the Watch, I think that perhaps you misinterpret the tone of his post. Certainly I do not think that he experiences "affrontery" to his faith by the existence of, or the exposure to, contrary opinions.

Instead, I think he was making a comment on the way that things are said. It's perfectly possible to make people think without ever having to resort to tactics such as calling some belief "crap". Likewise, it's perfectly possible to show, and explain, your disagreement with any given belief without belittling the holder of such a belief.

While on the whole, I think that you raise some good points, you will be able to get just as much, if not more, thought-provoking debate by wording things slightly differently.

And as for appealing to Logic, it should be perfectly clear that faith is the antithesis of Logic. We do not seek placation here. We seek challenges. But a challenge never has to be couched as an insult. Not only is it unnecessary, but it weakens your own position as well.

--Avatar

[Cybrweez]

Some of the Bible's teachings, like those on homosexuality, hold less importance for our survival than they did for the early Hebrews, who had a small population and warned against not procreating (please correct me if I'm wrong). The Hebrews didn't just go "Homosexuality! Ew!" There's a logical reason behind this. These were intelligent people with a motive. Condemning homosexuality made practical sense then; it makes none now. Perhaps the prejudice toward homosexuals would've been dropped when the need for such a social tool no longer existed, but, since that particular teaching is in the Bible, it gets carried over/given value to/passed on.

I think homosexuality is condemned in the Bible b/c God created woman from man, and created marriage to bring them back to one. A man cannot complete another man.

[Cybrweez]

While I also think the end times are fast approaching, I wouldn't beat it over anyone's head, or think I knew for sure whether they are or not. I also think its important for the church to think about the end times, for one, its says in Revelation that anyone who reads this book will be blessed, and for two, I think it gives some urgency to a Christian if he believes time is short. Gives a boldness to proclaim the truth. I think a church or Christian that ignores Revelation becomes complacent.

Baradakas, do you believe in a pre-Trib rapture?

[lurch]

...I understand what you have said Avatar.,,the honey /vinegar thing. Yet, i return to the opening proposition of the Thread..honey/vinegar?,,and I have made all attempts to stay within the parameters of the original proposition
...Others either did not comprehend what was stated,,or chose to disregard what was stated from the outset,,otherwise known as , hijacking a thread. ..now..what befalls after a concerted effort to maintain the hi-jacking,,is nothing more than the product of the hijacking. Yes, i did use the word crap..and also..i believe i explained how it is that i perceive certain beliefs as crassly described...If one goes into a lion den and trys to say its a herd of lamb,,and believes he or she will not be scratched,,who is at fault?,,the lions?...If there is any affrontery..it ought to be claimed by the orginater,,which ,,subtley,it seems to have been...
...Seldom do I expand into the profane and gutter,,but i do tend to test the edges of the envelope. ....MEL

[Cail]

No loss of steam Lurch, but as I've stated in other threads here, when you have to rely on insults to defend your point of view, not only have you lost the argument, but you guaranty that nobody will take you seriously.

I could care less if you or anyone else believes in God, either as I percieve him, or as a general concept. It's a very personal decision and feeling. I don't mind talking about my beliefs, and I enjoy hearing about other's beliefs. I respect everybody, even though I may not agree with them. I'd ask you to grant the same courtesy.

[lurch]

....how can I respect a posters who have apparent disregard or inability to comprehend what the thread is clearly defined as right from the start? I can not help but believe that a choice was made to take the opportunity to preach.Once is appreciated, but its turned into a running arguement kindly telling any opposer how sad they are and how doomed they are..but ..lets see..as of your post above..you don't care anymore. Very Good. As long as its presented in a political correct way, its okay,,no matter how off discussion or illrespectful to the thread it is...wonderful..Love the double standard... nice try....MEL

[[Syl]]

Enough. One more post in the direction it's going, and I will lock it. To make it easier, let's cut off all tangents. Either make summary statements or return to the original topic.