Depression

[Linna Heartbooger]

I guess the main thing is that though his father was not responsible for what he BECAME, I would say that what his father did still HARMED him and his immediate family.

Oh, definitely. I wasn't taking the analogy that far. I just meant that I'm no more likely to fall into depression because of hearing about and seeing someone else's than I am to fall into alcohol abuse because of hearing about and seeing someone else's. It doesn't transfer that way to people who are not depressed, or who are not alcoholics.

Ahh, I think that I understand better; me verbally sharing the content of my depression doesn't make someone else become depressed; just like Leo's dad's actions don't make Leo an alcholic. (I totally thought of it as being like he was trying to say "you don't get it; I get drunk because it's what I WANT to do.") And I would add that, likewise, the actions that the staffer's (Karen's?) dad took under the influence of alcohol didn't force her to judge alcoholics.

What I was actually talking about goes more like this: I'm talking not just about giving a description with words; I'm talking about _exposing_ my soul to others using my words (and actions; for people who are present IRL). When I'm depressed, I'e let my needs go unmet for so long that I am strongly tempted to demand and manipulate to get someone to listen to me. Some people's boundaries could hold up alright under that sort of thing, (but most of such people would deny a demand or attempt to manipulate) but it's exactly those people who I'd be afraid to ask for help... because of fear I'd be denied. Kinda like a Catch-22?

Yeah! I looked for the scene on youtube, but it wasn't there. It really is a great moment to see and hear!

Yeahh! I was affected even more by the episode where he goes back to the memory of him getting drunk in the hotel room when he had important stuff to do back on the campaign.

Even though alcohol has never been an issue for me either, I DEEPLY identified with the shame of being absent & letting down people who are important to you & wanting to hide yourself in a hole.. mainly because of depression.. and just other things where I shut myself out from the world.

[edit: and by "attempted," I mean "tempted"]

[Linna Heartbooger]

...It's so grandiose and pretentious, and of course narcissistic. But that's what the insde of me head looks like sometimes.

Exactly! Mine too... I think I should clean that thing out, some days!

I'm getting better and better at laughing at myself, which I've found is one of the best cures.

It's very important not to take oneself too seriously.

--A

I never woulda guessed you'd think that, Av! Btw, what's up with the mohawk?

In the scale of things, we're nothing. Less than nothing. Wisps of carbon and oxygen in the unimaginable vastness of everything. And yet at the same time, we contain an entire world within us, and we are the most important thing in that world.

Also...

[Avatar]

I never woulda guessed you'd think that, Av! Btw, what's up with the mohawk?

I have a purple mohawk, so I changed my avatar to match.

(Actually, I've been sporting this one for well over a year now. It's been white, green, red, blue and purple. There's pics of a couple of them in the album. )

--A

[Fist and Faith]

Ahh, I think that I understand better; me verbally sharing the content of my depression doesn't make someone else become depressed;

Correct.

just like Leo's dad's actions don't make Leo an alcholic. (I totally thought of it as being like he was trying to say "you don't get it; I get drunk because it's what I WANT to do.") And I would add that, likewise, the actions that the staffer's (Karen's?) dad took under the influence of alcohol didn't force her to judge alcoholics.

I'm not an alcoholic, so I really don't know what's what. But I think Leo is saying something like this:
"I'm an alcoholic, so I have no choice but to want to drink, and to want to drink a lot. But I choose whether or not to."

What I was actually talking about goes more like this: I'm talking not just about giving a description with words; I'm talking about _exposing_ my soul to others using my words (and actions; for people who are present IRL). When I'm depressed, I'e let my needs go unmet for so long that I am strongly attempted to demand and manipulate to get someone to listen to me. Some people's boundaries could hold up alright under that sort of thing, (but most of such people would deny a demand or attempt to manipulate) but it's exactly those people who I'd be afraid to ask for help... because of fear I'd be denied. Kinda like a Catch-22?

Sorry to say, I'm not following you.

Yeahh! I was affected even more by the episode where he goes back to the memory of him getting drunk in the hotel room when he had important stuff to do back on the campaign.

Yeah, excellent, excellent stuff!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma3d-YdLjCs

Even though alcohol has never been an issue for me either, I DEEPLY identified with the shame of being absent & letting down people who are important to you & wanting to hide yourself in a hole.. mainly because of depression.. and just other things where I shut myself out from the world.

Well, I know I've let the most important people in my life down pretty badly at times. Even in permanent ways. (My kids have divorced parents, after all.) But I don't have depression or other things that might make it worse than it is. (It was brutally so in the beginning, and is still difficult to think about.) All people let others down. There's no way to not. Just part of life.

[lorin]

What I was actually talking about goes more like this: I'm talking not just about giving a description with words; I'm talking about _exposing_ my soul to others using my words (and actions; for people who are present IRL). When I'm depressed, I'e let my needs go unmet for so long that I am strongly attempted to demand and manipulate to get someone to listen to me. Some people's boundaries could hold up alright under that sort of thing, (but most of such people would deny a demand or attempt to manipulate) but it's exactly those people who I'd be afraid to ask for help... because of fear I'd be denied. Kinda like a Catch-22?

Sorry to say, I'm not following you.

I so so understand this. I am a classic borderline personality and tend to manipulate people I value. (I'm working on this). I think it comes from the inability to express myself, express my needs and trust that they will be met. So I manipulate people I care about to bring them closer, but once they are close I push them away for fear they will deny me. Whatta' mess.

Another thing I have come to understand is the State of Happiness is something we learn as we grow. I recently stopped therapy with the same therapist after 20 years. I feel like my work with him and on myself has stemmed the flow of acting out, self destruction and the 55 year spiral I have been on. But I am left with this empty void where the negative stuff used to live. I have realized I do not know how to be happy. It is a learned behavior. I don't seem to be able to allow myself to be happy.

As I was growing, my mother used to say to me all the time that happiness is a choice so decide to be happy. I used to think that was load of existential crap. But as I get older I begin to believe maybe there is a bit of truth to that, and maybe she was somewhat right. (of course, she offed herself 5 years ago, so maybe she didn't have the complete answer.)

Ah well, it is what it is.

[aliantha]

(of course, she offed herself 5 years ago, so maybe she didn't have the complete answer.)

*Not* laughing at your grief, of course. Laughing at your wry humor.

I dunno that I've ever been in a full-blown depression (altho I've had to deal with people who have been). But this idea of denying your own needs for a long time resonates with me. That's certainly a parental thing -- the culture encourages you to sacrifice everything for your kids, and it sometimes feels like the people who tell you to meet your own needs as well are living in La-La Land. Particularly if you're a single parent. ("Oh sure, buddy, and how am I supposed to do that when I'm the only one here to watch the kids 24/7 and I don't have the money or time or energy to find a sitter?")

But the way you guys are describing it, there's definitely a boundaries issue there -- which I guess I'd never really thought about before in connection with depression. What you're describing is not just a belief that you're worthless, but a search outside yourself for someone to tell you you're not. And of course, due to being depressed, you're likely just going to snarl at that person and tell them how wrong they are -- if not at first, then eventually.

But it's not *just* about "deciding to make yourself happy" if your brain chemistry is futzed up. That's Dark Ages treatment of a very real disease. It would be like telling someone with cancer they don't need medical intervention -- all they have to do is sport a positive attitude and poof! tumor's gone.

[Linna Heartbooger]

...I totally thought of it as being like he was trying to say "you don't get it; I get drunk because it's what I WANT to do."

I'm not an alcoholic, so I really don't know what's what. But I think Leo is saying something like this:
"I'm an alcoholic, so I have no choice but to want to drink, and to want to drink a lot. But I choose whether or not to."

Ahh, yeah. That's a more complete & accurate interpretation.

...I'm talking not just about giving a description with words; I'm talking about _exposing_ my soul to others using my words (and actions; for people who are present IRL). When I'm depressed, I'e let my needs go unmet for so long that I am strongly attempted to demand and manipulate to get someone to listen to me.

Sorry to say, I'm not following you.

What Lorin and Ali were saying was spot-on.

And here's an example of how it may play out, from the book of my life: The depression and loneliness + the contents of my thoughts (both on the world, and on my state) spiral into an awful self-pity. When I am self-pitying, and hungry for attention/affirmation, if I ever get to the point of just seeking someone to listen to me... I fear that I will DUMP everything on them.

Why is that bad, in most contexts? Well, I think human interactions usually involve a certain measure of people implicitly "asking for permission" to go deeper - even when it comes to opening up and talking about oneself.

Also, if I "share" a lot, and then realize that the person who I was talking to wasn't ready for that... that's definitely gonna have a negative effect - both on me, and on the relationship.

...I DEEPLY identified with the shame of being absent & letting down people who are important to you & wanting to hide yourself in a hole...

Well, I know I've let the most important people in my life down pretty badly at times. Even in permanent ways. (My kids have divorced parents, after all.) But I don't have depression or other things that might make it worse than it is. (It was brutally so in the beginning, and is still difficult to think about.)

That sounds painful. I think that in our culture, people seldom speak honestly about the pain of a split like that. Thank you for speaking these words out loud.

All people let others down. There's no way to not. Just part of life.

YES.

But to me, it sometimes seems as though I must, at all costs, avoid "going out and doing something wrong" (or even just trying something and failing!). But if I passively "hold myself back" from doing anything at all... I feel like nobody can "put a finger on it" and blame me!

But there's self-deception in that.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Lorin: Borderline, admitting it, and working on it?!
Maybe people around these parts don't know how impressive that is. Way to go.

[Fist and Faith]

JC! What's up??


Lina, I'm still not quite sure what you mean. If the problem is having burdened someone with a whole bunch of your crap, don't worry about it. You can't dump everything on anyone who doesn't let you.

Or is it that, when you're in a good frame of mind, you regret having told the person so much about yourself?

And I don't have reason to suspect it's something you are prone to do, but I can easily envision a woman who is hungry for attention/affirmation going a bit farther to get it than she'd be happy with the next morning.

[lorin]

Lorin: Borderline, admitting it, and working on it?!
Maybe people around these parts don't know how impressive that is. Way to go.

Thanks!!!!!!!! Took me 20 years to say the word
borderline,
BORDERLINE,
BORDERLINE

(desensitization therapy )

[deer of the dawn]

I haven't been around much myself because last year I went through a major depression myself. I had a lot of those life-stressors going on all at once, and I go through a terrible passage once every several years anyway so it was my time.

Having been through it before, I knew that it would pass and I would survive.

I learned some important lessons in the dark.

That life is messy, people are flawed, I cannot fix it, and that is okay.

That no matter what the issue, my OWN repentance (i.e. owning up to my part of it, rather than blaming someone or something else) is a crucial step in moving forward.

That it is possible to have a great life, and still want to curl up and die. But that being explicitly grateful, and singing songs, and smiling and choosing to love, are possible even then.

There's more, but I feel I've exhausted my cred with those aphorisms.

Thanks, Lena, for giving me a heads-up to this discussion. I'll be back to read more of the back pages...

[Cambo]

There's more, but I feel I've exhausted my cred with those aphorisms.

Exhausted your cred? For me at least, your cred has gone from neutral (I don't believe we've met- I'm Cambo, relative noob )... to source of wisdom.

I, too, have learnt lessons in the dark. I previously told my counsellor that given the choice, I probably wouldn't remove my depression. It taught me too much. She was rather taken aback .

I identified with every one of your lessons. I am still learning most of them, in fact (particularly the " I can't change it" lesson). Keep posting here!

[deer of the dawn]

Thanks, Cambo, and nice to meet you as well. I've been reading more of the earlier pages and I liked this quote:

"In the 60s, life was normal and people took LSD to make it weird. Now life is weird and people take Prozac to make it normal."

I think that a lot of depression comes form thinking that life can ever be "normal", or at least that it can (or should) remain that way forever. Tragedies happen. Divorce, disease, disaster and death come uninvited into our "normal". I think personally that "normal" is another way of saying "in control" and a lot of depression comes from smacking up against reality which is NOT in our control.

While I had an unusual number of hard things to deal with last year-- leaving a teenage son in another country, my Mom having cancer, political unrest in our city leading to my teaching work being shut down, going through my own physical changes that have to do with getting older (nuff said), etc etc etc, BUT it was crystal clear to me that my depression was my journey and not caused by my circumstances. Grieving is one thing, and depression is another.

I really clung to that prayer: "God grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."

In fact I knew I was so confused and muddled in my thinking that I was unable to discern. I kind of made it my journey to accept all of it unconditionally, and go from there.

That was a good place to start. As time went by, I realized that there were things I can change-- starting with myself. But beyond that, I can have an impact on my world and others-- chiefly by loving them.

Again, I feel like I'm pushing it. I'll let it rest at that.

[Cagliostro]

I've been reading a bit more of this thread, and there is some good stuff here. And I think Av said exactly the way I feel about my early years depression:

I never really thought of myself as having recovered from depression. More like just getting over it. *shrug*

Something I have found helpful during the darker times in my adult life is the following section of a song from Jane Siberry (now known as Issa). Here is the section of the lyrics for those who find strength in such things.

1. YOU WILL BE BORN INTO A STRANGE AND DESOLATE PLACE.
2. IT WILL BE CALLED "THE AVERAGE HOME."
3. THE TIMES WILL BE RESTLESS AND FULL OF UNCERTAINTY.
4. YOU WILL SILENTLY QUESTION THIS OF YOUR MOTHER AS YOU WATCH HER MOVE AWAY.
5. THERE WILL BE NO ANSWER.
6. YOU WILL BEGIN THE LONG PROCESS OF SHUTTING DOWN.
7. YOUR COUNTENANCE WILL REFLECT LESS LIGHT AND LATER WHEN YOU LOOK
AT PICTURES OF YOURSELF YOU WILL WONDER.
8. YOU WILL GIVE UP YOUR BACKBONE TO THE T.V. AND ACCEPT A VALUE SYSTEM
9. PUTTING FORTH LIES, HATRED AND INTOLERANCE IN THE NAME OF LOVE AS ACCEPTABLE.
10. NO ONE WILL STEP FORWARD FROM THE SHADOWS SAYING: "EXPECT THIS, IT IS PART OF THE PATH."
11. YOU WILL DISCOVER DRUGS AND ALCOHOL.
12. YOU WILL INSTINCTIVELY MOVE TOWARDS YOUR OWN BOTTOM LINE.
13. YOU WILL RUSH HEADLONG TOWARDS YOUR BOTTOM LINE IN AN INSTINCTIVE ATTEMPT TO HEAL.
14. YOU WILL GO TO AA TO LEARN WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE LEARNED IN SUNDAY SCHOOL.
15. AND THEN YOU WILL GIVE YOURSELF PERMISSION TO CRY. AND YOU WILL CRY AND CRY AND CRY.
16. AND YOUR FRIENDS WILL MOVE AWAY NERVOUSLY AND YOU'LL FEEL LIKE A FOOL.
17. AND NO ONE WILL STEP FORWARD FROM THE SHADOWS SAYING
18. "THE JOURNEY FORWARD INCLUDES MOVEMENT INTO DESPAIR."
19. AND YOU WILL BE GATHERING STRENGTH
20. EVEN AS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.
21. AND CERTAIN WORDS LIKE LOVE AND...
22. INTEGRITY WILL BE DRAWN INTO YOUR SPINE.
23. AND THEN ONE DAY...
24. YOU WILL TURN OFF THE T.V.

Incidentally, sorry about the all caps, but the song has several "voices," and this "voice" is differentiated by all caps. And I'm too lazy to type it out.

Here is a video of her doing this song, supposedly. I don't have sound at work, and cannot confirm if it is correct. It looks pretty hippy. And as she has gone all hippy, she's giving her music away for free now, so you can find her whole catalog here. She's always been an oddball, and I love her albums up to Maria that this song came from (called Oh My My), but I hated Hush, and seemed to lose the enjoyment. The live Christmas album (called Child) is especially good, and Teenager is a good album as well, but they are songs from her youth. The Walking may be my favorite, and maybe her most original (and strangely enough, similar in feel to Aerial from Kate Bush, which came out many years later). And now that I know she is doing this, I'm gonna grab everything I don't already have on CD, which includes her 3 latest albums that I've never heard once she went all hippy and changed her name.

I apologize for the diversion.

[aliantha]

Lorin: Borderline, admitting it, and working on it?!
Maybe people around these parts don't know how impressive that is. Way to go.

Thanks!!!!!!!! Took me 20 years to say the word
borderline,
BORDERLINE,
BORDERLINE

(desensitization therapy )

Two different social workers told me that the ex's 3rd wife, a.k.a. the Lovely Wife, a.k.a. The Bitch (that's what my kids call her now) was borderline. Not only did she make our lives a living hell, but she also would not admit that she had any problems whatsoever. I'd love to get back those ten years of my and my kids' lives. Things would be a *lot* different for my kids now.

But anyway, kudos to you, lorin, for being able to admit your problems.

[lorin]

Two different social workers told me that the ex's 3rd wife, a.k.a. the Lovely Wife, a.k.a. The Bitch (that's what my kids call her now) was borderline. Not only did she make our lives a living hell, but she also would not admit that she had any problems whatsoever. I'd love to get back those ten years of my and my kids' lives. Things would be a *lot* different for my kids now.

The diagnosis of Borderline is difficult and very vague. It is very difficult to actually define. And Borderlines are going to be the last one;s to admit it. It is easier to see yourself as depressed. It's complicated. If you are in a depressive state, you are a victim of your moods and your situation. When you are a borderline, you are a victimizer in certain respects. People will not easily admit they are the perpetrators. To admit you are a borderline is to take responsibility for your behaviors, and that in itself is difficult for anyone. People don't just 'become' borderlines, it is the result of an abusive or neglectful environment where they learned to survive by manipulating the people around them to get their emotional and physical needs met. But the borderline person doesn't 'hear' that, they only hear that you are accusing them of being a bad person. Their filters are broken. And there is no medication you can take to help you with the diagnosis.

Was she always craving attention and 'creating' one crisis after another to draw attention to herself?

Did she have difficulty with maintaining boundaries with those around her?

Did she see everything in black and white...good or bad, love or hate....right or wrong with no grey areas in her thought processes?

If you answered yes to the questions above, then what you have is one full blown borderline.

As a person that has lived with both major depression and borderline, if I had to pick one to live with, it would be depression surprisingly. It is more tangible and when you can touch your pain you can fix it.

[Vraith]

As a person that has lived with both major depression and borderline, if I had to pick one to live with, it would be depression surprisingly. It is more tangible and when you can touch your pain you can fix it.

I'll jump in related to this, cuz it has me reevaluating an gargantuan stack of stuff: having been in/out of various counseling, on/off varying meds: right this minute, and at various interludes in the past, divided by times when I hope someone discovered something so I go back for "treatment" to find out...I intentionally live/act in ways that I know will encourage depression to avoid being a spectacular SOB to peeps I give a damn about...[which doesn't help at all...cuz peeps you care about don't want you do dodge them]...and looking at borderline, I wonder why it never ever came up, considering all the descriptions and possible causes [in particular the early childhood ones] match me perfectly.
Not that I will self-diagnose, but i have a shitpile of questions to ask some peeps now...and suspect unless their answers are spectacular, I'm gonna be really really pissed.

[aliantha]

Was she always craving attention and 'creating' one crisis after another to draw attention to herself?

Check. Just one example from a multitude: They invited my two daughters and me to church with them (L.W., the ex, and her three kids) one Mother's Day. During the service, the pastor asked which mother had the most children in church with her that day. L.W. stood up. Pastor: "You don't have all the children here today, do you?" L.W.: "Oh yes, all five of my children are here." No mention of me, of course. After the service, I introduced myself to the pastor (within earshot of L.W.) as Batty and Magickmaker's mother. And L.W. lectured me later about causing a scene in church.

Did she have difficulty with maintaining boundaries with those around her?

Oh gods, yes. Check. One of the therapists saw us all together at one session for family therapy. Then at the following session, the therapist made it clear that she wanted to see only my daughters, me, and the ex; L.W. tried to wheedle her way in, and when the therapist told her NO, she left in a huff and sat in their car. After the session, when my kids were in the car with L.W. and the ex, she told my kids that if it weren't for her, their father would have killed himself.

Did she see everything in black and white...good or bad, love or hate....right or wrong with no grey areas in her thought processes?

Check.

If you answered yes to the questions above, then what you have is one full blown borderline.

Yup.

The other therapist who diagnosed her is a friend of mine who never met L.W. but listened to me complain about her for years. My friend was running a support group for borderlines at the time, so she knew whereof she spoke.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Sorry y'all.. I come up with so many things I want to say but I am slooowwww to post... Hrmm.

Lina, I'm still not quite sure what you mean. If the problem is having burdened someone with a whole bunch of your crap, don't worry about it. You can't dump everything on anyone who doesn't let you.

Alright, here's an analogy:

I walk up to you, "Hey Fist, could you hold this dish for me? It's a priceless family heirloom, but I'm just.. holding too many things / have stuff I REALLY need to take care of, and just need you to do this one thing for me... afraid I might drop it."

I let go of the dish right above your hands, even though we're standing over a tile floor.
Do you let go of it and let it fall to the floor and break, or do you hold it for me?

If you choose to take on the burden of holding the dish for me, I agree, it -IS- your choice. But I think putting someone in this position would be at least a -little- unfair to them. =)

Or is it that, when you're in a good frame of mind, you regret having told the person so much about yourself?

And I don't have reason to suspect it's something you are prone to do, but I can easily envision a woman who is hungry for attention/affirmation going a bit farther to get it than she'd be happy with the next morning.

I would say this is perceptive & shows that you totally DO get the piece of it on that end. I think we humans often try to fill our needs with the things we -think- we need... but which not only doesn't meet the need, but also creates worse problems... kind of like Caggy's song lyrics.

BTW, GREAT LYRICS, Caggy.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Unfortunately, more often than not I'm depressed for no reason at all...

Just noticed you'd said this... I think that statement is a fallacy.. But I think what you really meant wasn't -exactly- "no reason at all."

Personally, it really helps me to be allowed into someone elses pain. It puts my own into perspective; as awful as it is for me, it's nothing unique or unsurmountable. Knowing people who have gone through so, so much worse than I have, and still remain essentially beautiful people, is a great source of hope. Of course, if I can help them while they're in that state, that's a wonderful thing in itself. Often the act of just letting someone in there does both people a world of good.

I had meant to tell you.. me talking to ppl on this forum while I was depressed -is- my great experiment in trying to "show a bit of myself while depressed." Thanks for doing your part in making this a place where people are listened to.

As I am experimenting with "accepting help from others while depressed." My friend came over and CLEANED my house for a couple of hours these past two weeks. (well, she "helped me" - but she did the lion's share of the work.) And that was such a lovely gift, because she took away my shame of having a messy house!

Btw, I had a -really- great session with my counselor last week, and have been mostly "out of the woods" for the past 2 weeks. Also not dreading future depression like a sword of Damocles hanging over my head atm.

But this idea of denying your own needs for a long time resonates with me. ...and it sometimes feels like the people who tell you to meet your own needs as well are living in La-La Land. Particularly if you're a single parent. ("Oh sure, buddy, and how am I supposed to do that when I'm the only one here to watch the kids 24/7 and I don't have the money or time or energy to find a sitter?")

Sigghhhh... yeahhh... I think our society doesn't "know what to do with" single parents. Probably even LESS when your kids were young!

And it's so much easier for people to tell you what you "should" do, (and maybe they are even CORRECT in their assessment) than to put forth some effort to make it possible for you!

What you're describing is not just a belief that you're worthless, but a search outside yourself for someone to tell you you're not. And of course, due to being depressed, you're likely just going to snarl at that person and tell them how wrong they are -- if not at first, then eventually.

BINGO! =) My counselor noticed something very perceptive, noticing that in every direction, I had "walled myself off" from believing I could do certain things.

I have a purple mohawk, so I changed my avatar to match.

Whoaahh... it appears you're the second South African I know to have a mohawk and wildly-dyed hair. And my friend Jane said ppl in SA looked at her really weirdly when she had green hair, so I think this data sample is anomalous.