Determinism

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Wayfriend, I totally agree with that observation. In no way is it not free, except in terms of causality and our understanding of it. I think it would help behavior theory, not hurt any part of humanity. Ok, THIS is the post I will edit for more ideas! unless someone else posts! This time I mean it.

[wayfriend]

I don't see how ignorance of how your chains means they aren't there.

Well, feel free to tell me where the unperceived ones are, too.

In no way is it not free, except in terms of causality and our understanding of it.

No, in no way is the map of the future causally affecting our choices, either!

The point I'm trying to bring up is that you cannot confuse which thing causes which thing. Our choices cause the map of the future - the map of the future does not cause our choices.

"But what about if we had knowledge of what would happen in the future?", you might counter.

In my college symbolic logic class, we learned that the expression "if X then Y" is always true, no matter what Y is, if X is always false. "If protons were the size of houses, then I would be a best-selling author" is a true statement. "If the sky filed my taxes, then our existince would be red" is a true statement. But they're also meaningless statements, because they are true only because of their logical form, not because of whatever idea they express.

Even worse, the statements "If this reply does not exist, then I will be happy", and "If this reply does not exist, then I will not be happy" are both true. Which sort of demonstrates their meaninglessness.

So any statement "If we had knowledge of what would happen in the future, then ..." is, in the same way, true and meaningless. You could claim that our free will would be stolen; you could claim it would remain. Both true, both meaningless.

[Nathan]

Again, there is no map of the future because there's nobody that can draw one. because nobody is clever enough to be able to look at all the factors at th same time. Maybe one day there'll be a computer that can do it.

You seem to be talking about predestination rather than determinism. Determinism is things happening because of things in the past that force you to perform certain actions/make certain choices. Predestination is fate (destiny, whatever) being planned by some supreme being.

In my college symbolic logic class, we learned that the expression "if X then Y" is always true, no matter what Y is, if X is always false. "If protons were the size of houses, then I would be a best-selling author" is a true statement. "If the sky filed my taxes, then our existince would be red" is a true statement.

I disagree. Anything that cannot be proven true cannot be called true. The moment anyone makes such a statement I say "prove it". Lack of a negative proof doesn't make something true.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Yeah, the idea of saying "if protons were as big as houses, I would be a best selling author" is just silly. But I see what you're getting at, kind of...
I'm not talking about this relationship between your choices and the roadmap of the future...
If there was some massive equation, on a 4 dimmensional field....x and y and z being the three physical coordinates, and t being time, that plotted the points of every single chunk of existence, I think you could simply plug in your time, and get a read out of the position of every single thing ever.
The future, present, and past are static. at any givnen T there will only be one x y and z for each object.

[Nathan]

Time is like a book. If you read it again it won't be different the second time. If you stop in the middle and carry on reading it tomorrow, it won't be any different than if you'd read it yesterday.

[Avatar]

Our choices cause the map of the future - the map of the future does not cause our choices.

Thats pretty much the way I see it. Our choices define what our future will hold for us. Just because we have to work on limited information, does not mean that there must be information out there that we do not have.

Some great posts there BTW Fist, (as always), glad you're keeping the home fires burning.

I certainly agree with you when you say:

You simply have to give up the need to make us believe what you believe. Then it's simply a fascinating exchange of thoughts and beliefs!

If I let these things frustrate me, then I'd have stopped posting long ago.

If things are unpercieved, then they may as well not be there at all. If I believe that I have "Free wIll", and act as though I do, and make my choices as though I have alternatives, (which I clearly do), then who is to say that I am wrong? By acting as if I am right, I am right. To me anyway.

--Avatar

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Avatar, because you post in so many topics I'm watching, I get to kind of track your path through the various threads, trying to catch up. Hehehehe.... it's kind of amusing. Maybe this thread is basically exhausted...

[Avatar]

Nice to see you around.

Yeah, it may be exhausted, for now at least, (Until I come up with some devastating new argument )

Still, its been a good run, and I get the feeling that it'll eke along for a while yet. Still been great fun.

Later
--A

[Nathan]

We had a good innings with this thread and I'm happy with what's been said. Thanks for an enjoyable ride guys. Especially Avatar and Jemcheeta who I think have been with me all the way through.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

THE LAST WORD
heheheh

[Avatar]

That just begged this post, didn't it?

--Avatar

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Curses Avatar!!! If you weren't so eternally opinionated, I would have had THE LAST WORD

[Nathan]

Not a chance.

He can lock things around here so he may beat us that way...

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I thought he could lock things in the think tank, not the close. I may still have a chance to put in
THE LAST WORD

[Plissken]

Man, I don't even understand the question. People choose things for the reasons they choose them. It's not a cosmic plan, I just like what I like on my pizza.

Let that be your "Last Word".

[Avatar]

You know, I nearly did. Not that I disagree with you, but the temptation is just overwhelming.

--A

[Nathan]

maybe he can't lock in here then, that's why this is the LAST WORD

[Fist and Faith]

I got your LAST WORD right here, guys.

Now don't make me open my can...
<img src=kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/album_see.php?id=140>

And I know what you mean a few posts back, Av. If it's not free will, it plays out like it is. So I'll just go on thinking it is, whether that belief comes from free will or not.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Fist, I'm down with that, 100%.
It doesn't change anything at all, for me, except in how I handle other people and understand their behaviour. Because I recognize that I still have to make all my decisions, it doesn't change how I do anything. However, when I'm dealing with someone else, it helps to know that they're doing things for reasons. While I disagree with those reasons, I can be confident that some rationale is at work, and if I can figure out that rationale, I can go about communicating with that person in a much more effective way.
It's already been helpful! Which is, of course, the ultimate test of any philosophy I adopt. The 'what's in it for me?' factor is very high on my requirement list.

[Avatar]

And I know what you mean a few posts back, Av. If it's not free will, it plays out like it is. So I'll just go on thinking it is, whether that belief comes from free will or not.

Yup. I suppose that whether it is or not, is essentially meaningless in the long run.

As long as we live it, it's the same as if it is.

And I agree with Jemcheeta's criteria: Usefulness.

I always tell people that philosophy is a far more practical subject than people give it credit for.

--Avatar