Kevin's Watch

dlbpharmd wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

Aleksandr wrote:Re: We know that their befuddlement at the gates of Revelstone was just a front. But what, or who, were they fronting for?

Didn't Kastenessen give them orders through Anele?

Are you saying Katenessen gave the Demondim order through Anele? I don't know.

It was the "being of fire" that took possession of Anele in the scene, and IIRC at a later point that being is revealed to be Kastenessen.

Which scene? Which book?

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: Are you saying Katenessen gave the Demondim order through Anele? I don't know.

It was the "being of fire" that took possession of Anele in the scene, and IIRC at a later point that being is revealed to be Kastenessen.

Which scene? Which book?

The scene we're talking about is the battle with the Demondim prior to Linden arriving in Revelstone in ROTE. As for the identity of the fiery possessor, Esmer confirms that it is Kastenessen in FR Chapter 2.

I'm not as forgiving of Linden as some of you.
Cail once said to Linden: 'That we do not question. Is Corruption not always convinced of it's own rightness?'
Linden should have listened.

Linden has been obsessed with saving Jeremiah from the start. Obsessed. Nothing must stop her. Nothing else is really important. She just absolutely must have him back.
She believes utterly in her goal. And any means necessary to achieve that goal, are justified (witness her creation of a Fall.)

That sounds like Despite to me. And she has just destroyed the Earth, by waking the Worm, as a result of her willingness to commit any act she deems necessary to achieve her goals.

Incompetent? I would say Corrupted.

Edelaith wrote:Incompetent? I would say Corrupted.

And that would still make a good story . . . if Jeremiah was someone we cared about. I've got a son. If someone kidnapped him and molested him, I'd become even more evil than Linden. I'd want to put the fuc*er in a wood chipper. But we never know Jeremiah as a real person. It takes more than racecars and legos to make me like the kid. Linden's plight just doesn't resonate. It seems so much less than the quest to end the Sunbane or the quest to destroy the Illearth Stone. What used to be symbolic quests in the previous Chronicles are now literal quests. And maybe that's the whole problem: this is fantasy. The quest shouldn't be literal. That just makes it seem mundane and diminished, despite all the fireworks along the way.

Edelaith wrote:Linden has been obsessed with saving Jeremiah from the start. Obsessed. Nothing must stop her. Nothing else is really important. She just absolutely must have him back.

I'm starting to believe that no one reads half of the book.

Everyone said that for Runes, too. Then we dissected the book, and lo, it turned out to be a competely false assertion. There was ample and complete evidence that Linden was doing quite a bit for the sake of the Land.

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again: Linden will do her best to save the Land and everyone in it, at least so long as it doesn't compromise her goal of saving Jeremiah. And, no, after two books, that compromise hasn't happened.

I mean, did you even read the two whole chapters where she healed Berek's army??!?!?!?!!!?!!!

Wayfriend wrote:

Edelaith wrote:Linden has been obsessed with saving Jeremiah from the start. Obsessed. Nothing must stop her. Nothing else is really important. She just absolutely must have him back.

I'm starting to believe that no one reads half of the book.

Everyone said that for Runes, too. Then we dissected the book, and lo, it turned out to be a competely false assertion. There was ample and complete evidence that Linden was doing quite a bit for the sake of the Land.

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again: Linden will do her best to save the Land and everyone in it, at least so long as it doesn't compromise her goal of saving Jeremiah. And, no, after two books, that compromise hasn't happened.

I mean, did you even read the two whole chapters where she healed Berek's army??!?!?!?!!!?!!!

Yes, and her purpose was to gain Berek's assistance, not to "heal the Land."

Malik23 wrote:

Edelaith wrote:Incompetent? I would say Corrupted.

And that would still make a good story . . . if Jeremiah was someone we cared about. I've got a son. If someone kidnapped him and molested him, I'd become even more evil than Linden. I'd want to put the fuc*er in a wood chipper. But we never know Jeremiah as a real person. It takes more than racecars and legos to make me like the kid. Linden's plight just doesn't resonate. It seems so much less than the quest to end the Sunbane or the quest to destroy the Illearth Stone. What used to be symbolic quests in the previous Chronicles are now literal quests. And maybe that's the whole problem: this is fantasy. The quest shouldn't be literal. That just makes it seem mundane and diminished, despite all the fireworks along the way.

Somewhere in the GI SRD indicated that he has gone beyond the mundane and literal goal of TC in the First Chronicles. You'll see that although the goal Linden has established for herself is on the physical level, she'll have to heal herself (physician, heal thyself!) before she can accomplish anything.

As for the idea that the quest shouldn't be literal because it's fantasy, I would like to stick up for SRD in that most if not all the rest of the fantasy world is limited to quests for the literal, while it was SRD who raised the bar as early as 1977. Perhaps you're not reading the books on every possible level. Because even in the First Chronicles the heroes had all kinds of internal dilemmas to overcome. They've almost always been internally and not externally driven.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Yes, and her purpose was to gain Berek's assistance, not to "heal the Land."

So since she "healed the Land", she wasn't very single-minded and obsessed, was she.

Wayfriend wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Yes, and her purpose was to gain Berek's assistance, not to "heal the Land."

So since she "healed the Land", she wasn't very single-minded and obsessed, was she.

She's always been single-minded and obsessed about something or other, but, to put it in terms SRD would accept, "This time it's personal."

Wayfriend wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Yes, and her purpose was to gain Berek's assistance, not to "heal the Land."

So since she "healed the Land", she wasn't very single-minded and obsessed, was she.

She did that so that she could get Berek's which the fake TC said he would need to save Jeremiah.

If it didn't save Jeremiah I think she would have gone her own way. Actually her reasoning through the fake TCs actions and realizing it wouldn't save Jeremiah is what caused her to go her own way.

FAP wrote:If it didn't save Jeremiah I think she would have gone her own way. Actually her reasoning through the fake TCs actions and realizing it wouldn't save Jeremiah is what caused her to go her own way.

Honestly, I don't know how you can have read the words on the page and come away with the idea that Linden only did all that in order to purchase some help from Berek.

Wayfriend wrote:

FAP wrote:If it didn't save Jeremiah I think she would have gone her own way. Actually her reasoning through the fake TCs actions and realizing it wouldn't save Jeremiah is what caused her to go her own way.

Honestly, I don't know how you can have read the words on the page and come away with the idea that Linden only did all that in order to purchase some help from Berek.

As for me, I didn't mean to imply that it was her only purpose. But gaining some horses from Berek was her greater purpose of the moment. I mean, really, they didn't chance themselves with the scouts, and then with that traitor guy who hit Jeremiah (what was his name?), over an opportunity to heal some soldiers. They took a huge risk.

Yes, it was a huge risk. Then again, the risk comes from being hijacked in time, which wasn't her fault.

But she wasn't even thinking about horses when she acted. And she could have gotten horses a lot of easier ways.

She saw that those men needed help and she did everything she could to help them, exerting herself to the limits of endurance. That was no stepping stone on her path to free Jeremiah. That was no bargaining chip to use with Berek.

Wayfriend wrote:Yes, it was a huge risk. Then again, the risk comes from being hijacked in time, which wasn't her fault.

But she wasn't even thinking about horses when she acted. And she could have gotten horses a lot of easier ways.

She saw that those men needed help and she did everything she could to help them, exerting herself to the limits of endurance. That was no stepping stone on her path to free Jeremiah. That was no bargaining chip to use with Berek.

Sorry, but I don't remember things that way at all, and you're omitting a large amount of context. They needed a speedier form of travel to get around the Last Hills. They spotted smoke in the distance and I believe it was the Theomach who informed them it was Berek's camp. Then they decided to try and retrieve some horses from Berek.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Sorry, but I don't remember things that way at all, and you're omitting a large amount of context. They needed a speedier form of travel to get around the Last Hills. They spotted smoke in the distance and I believe it was the Theomach who informed them it was Berek's camp. Then they decided to try and retrieve some horses from Berek.

Nothing omitted by me. You omitted something when you did not continue on to say ... so they went to Berek's camp, and when they got there Linden saw the pain and suffering, and she decided to do something about it, regardless of whatever her plans were, and she worked herself to death on their behalf, and only when she had done all she could do did she return to consideration of her own situation, and even then she made a point of leaving instructions for the other healers so that things would be better for them going forward.

This is just one example of Linden caring for the Land and the people and trying to save the Land, regardless of trying to find Jeremiah.

Wayfriend wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Sorry, but I don't remember things that way at all, and you're omitting a large amount of context. They needed a speedier form of travel to get around the Last Hills. They spotted smoke in the distance and I believe it was the Theomach who informed them it was Berek's camp. Then they decided to try and retrieve some horses from Berek.

Nothing omitted by me. You omitted something when you did not continue on to say ... so they went to Berek's camp, and when they got there Linden saw the pain and suffering, and she decided to do something about it, regardless of whatever her plans were, and she worked herself to death on their behalf, and only when she had done all she could do did she return to consideration of her own situation, and even then she made a point of leaving instructions for the other healers so that things would be better for them going forward.

This is just one example of Linden caring for the Land and the people and trying to save the Land, regardless of trying to find Jeremiah.

Then why did she leave?

I believe she planned on the healing before she even saw the pain and suffering. But just because she wanted to trade her services for horses doesn't mean it wasn't altruistic. It wasn't completely altruistic, but what is? She could've just healed one, or maybe trade one healing for one horse. But she went above and beyond for no other reason than that her nature compelled her to. Pretty noble, if you ask me.

I agree with that, except I never even saw a hint that she was trading services for horses in the text. If someone feels that that is what she was doing, then they're projecting a preconception of how people behave onto her acts. Donaldson never said it.

That doesn't mean that she didn't think Berek would be grateful and be more willing lend her some horses. What it means is that she would have healed all those people even if she didn't think so.

Of course Linden healed Berek's soldiers. That behavior reflects who Linden is. You have the good and the bad with Linden Avery.
The same stubbornness and courage that allowed her to walk into an armed and hostile camp, was the stubbornness and courage that allowed her to hold on her way, until she awoke the Worm.
Her compassion for healing, her compassion for Jeremiah ... these are symptoms of obsession. In the Land, obsession and power are a dangerous mix. Ask Elena.

So now the Worm is awake. Linden had to have known there was a grave danger of that happening ... why else did she conceal her purpose from her friends?
I do not see Linden with any plan for dealing with the Worm, though. She may have anticipated awakening it, but where is the plan for dealing with it?

And if Linden is willing to awaken the Worm with no way of dealing with it, that may signify obsession, but it certainly does not signify healing.

Bring strong willed, obsessive, and single minded is a double edged sword. Everyone from Liand up through Infelice warned Linden. Why didn't she listen?
Mass destruction is not the creed of a healer!

Wayfriend wrote:I agree with that, except I never even saw a hint that she was trading services for horses in the text. If someone feels that that is what she was doing, then they're projecting a preconception of how people behave onto her acts. Donaldson never said it.

That doesn't mean that she didn't think Berek would be grateful and be more willing lend her some horses. What it means is that she would have healed all those people even if she didn't think so.

Did they go to that camp to heal soldiers or get some horses? You're reply relies on the fact that they went in without any clear plan. I realize that when Linden saw suffering and dying all around, she wasn't thinking to save lives in order to get horses in return. It was, however, a fortuitous enough event for those without any plan to begin with.