More evidence of The Chosen's incompetence

[thewormoftheworld'send]

P. 96 of FR:

"To her taut nerves, the confusion and uncertainty of the monsters seemed as loud as the blaring of battle-horns. But as she studied what she felt and heard and tasted -- seeking, seeking -- she began to think that their display of bewilderment was too loud..."

"Galvanized by a small jolt of excitement, Linden pushed her perception further, deeper. As she did so, she became certain that the Demondim were putting on a show of confusion, that their obvious disturbance was a ruse..."

What does The Sunsage and Chosen do with this new-found knowledge?
Nothing...

P. 97:

"All right, she told herself. All right. So she could not guess how the Demondim had decided on their present strategems. So what? She had come to the rim of Revelstone to attempt a kind of surgery; and surgery demanded attention to what was immediately in front of her... Her task was simply and solely to extirpate the cancer of the horde's access to the Illearth Stone. For the surgeon in her, nothing else mattered."

Even Linden's surgical skill, wielded as magic in the Land, is nothing more than a tool for the Despiser. It's no wonder the ur-viles assist her at her every moment of dire distress. Every instance of victory translates, directly or indirectly, into her own downfall, and ultimately, into despair.

As evidence, it was Esmer who brought the ur-viles out of the past, and it is Esmer who presents the conflicting aspects of aid and betrayal, often in the very same act. But this is because it was only the semblance of aid to begin with. And it was only with the aid of ur-viles that Linden was able to overcome the Demondim "threat" of the Illearth Stone by finding and defeating the Fall of the Demondim. As in the first two Chronicles, every exertion of magic brings the earth ever closer to its final Desecration.

And yet, I am no Linden Avery hater. Her incompetence, which is very real, is just a plot mechanism to bring about the thrilling conclusion of FR. Because it was Linden's recognition of her own incompetence which led her to Andelain in the first place.

[Usivius]

The "problem" with Linden (if we are to call it that) is not her "incompetance" but the fact that she chooses to DO something. People who DO things, or make choices to Do things are bound to make mistakes, because they are interacting.
One of the reasons I no longer find TC as gripping a character as I did when I was a teenager and formative young man, is that I now see him as somewaht listless and just allows people to kinda direct and protect him.
Linden chooses, and through that she makes great choices (healing of Bereks's men) and not so great choices (summoning TC).

But you are right: all these character elements make fotr a thrilling story, no matter how frustrated some may get with her choices.
That's one fo the reasons I like Mordant's Need so much: the character is seriously flawed, but she learns to question, reason, and make choices. Not all are good, but she learns and fights to correct and make things right... We are going to see the same from Linden ... just on a much larger, grander scale!

[wayfriend]

It may be that Linden is heading towards the same fate as Hile Troy.

[Starkin]

Usivius SRD

[stormrider]

That's one fo the reasons I like Mordant's Need so much: the character is seriously flawed, but she learns to question, reason, and make choices. Not all are good, but she learns and fights to correct and make things right...

That's one of the reasons I adore Terisa. But I actually didn't like her at first. She starts out as this helpless, demure, ineffectual woman, who transforms into a strong, confident, powerful person.

It's unfortunate that I didn't grow to love Linden the same way I did Terisa. I've never really understood it.

[Ur Dead]

A reoccuring theme SRD has.
Out of the pits of despair the character finds the escape to overcome their handicap.

I believe Mahrtiir said it best. (The section right after the Woodhelm battle )

[Usivius]

A reoccuring theme SRD has.
Out of the pits of despair the character finds the escape to overcome their handicap.

I believe Mahrtiir said it best. (The section right after the Woodhelm battle )

Spot on .... And we have two more books to go through before we see this! <sudder>

[dlbpharmd]

It may be that Linden is heading towards the same fate as Hile Troy.

Excellent point.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The "problem" with Linden (if we are to call it that) is not her "incompetance" but the fact that she chooses to DO something. People who DO things, or make choices to Do things are bound to make mistakes, because they are interacting.
One of the reasons I no longer find TC as gripping a character as I did when I was a teenager and formative young man, is that I now see him as somewaht listless and just allows people to kinda direct and protect him.
Linden chooses, and through that she makes great choices (healing of Bereks's men) and not so great choices (summoning TC).

But you are right: all these character elements make fotr a thrilling story, no matter how frustrated some may get with her choices.
That's one fo the reasons I like Mordant's Need so much: the character is seriously flawed, but she learns to question, reason, and make choices. Not all are good, but she learns and fights to correct and make things right... We are going to see the same from Linden ... just on a much larger, grander scale!

And every reader certainly likes it when Linden does something, otherwise she would be a very boring heroine. The same is true with TC and his occasional heroics in past novels. The characters talk, prattle, walk around the Land or sail the Seas, and eventually they screw up just as they did at the Isle of the One Tree.

But TC learned from that particular mistake, and I don't see Linden learning anything from hers. The result has only been her increasing despair, and a blackened heart. Thus, her inevitable resurrection of TC who, at least, has been capable of learning enough to defeat LF twice.

My question is this: if Linden had had the foresight to ask herself why the Demondim were putting on a show of puzzlement, rather than her merely pushing forward to play the great surgeon working to save a patient like some tool, would she have gone back in time at all with "Covenant" and her son? And what does Linden get out of not bothering to ask the right questions instead of acting in haste?

I think, after discerning the fact that the Demondim were putting on an obvious front, the first question she should have asked was this: Why are these monsters even parked outside the gates of Revelstone to begin with? And why am I (Linden) once again being played the fool? Shouldn't she then have questioned her own motives for being in that place at the particular time? I am 100% certain TC would have, if he had been in Linden's place. And even though I've kind of answered my own question in this post, I'd like to ask others who have read the book what they think the true purpose of the Demondim was at that point in the novel.

Would it have to do with Linden meeting up with the Viles 10,000 years in the past? Does it somehow play a role in the creation of the Demondim? What did they hope to get out of this charade anyway?

[lurch]

Pointing out Linden's incompetencies is like pointing out TC's leprosy..

[High Lord Tolkien]

Pointing out Linden's incompetencies is like pointing out TC's leprosy..

You own me a new keyboard for making me laugh so hard while I was drinking.!

[CT]

Thinking on the Demondim-at-Revelstone thing...are we entirely comfortable that the Demondim were putting on a "show" chasing Roger and the croyel/Jerry towards Revelstone?

How would the Demondim have known (having been snatched from thousands of years in the past) they had a critical role to play in a sham (the role of giving Roger/Jerry credibility by appearing to harry them all the way to the gates)? What else could explain their actions? Or am
I over-thinking this?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Pointing out Linden's incompetencies is like pointing out TC's leprosy..

Exactly. And they both play a role in the series. Linden's incompetence is not incidental, but integral to the plot. Everything has meaning here, just as Elena's slavering over her own father turned out to be integral in the long run.

Furthermore, Linden is highly aware of her own incompetence (which she feels as inadequacy), which led her to summon TC.

So as you indicate, it's not as if I'm revealing something we don't already know, I just don't see the basis for the complaint against Linden anymore. *After all*, it was this very incompetence which led to reviving TC.
Therefore, THOOLAH members should be grateful to Linden for her inadequacies.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Thinking on the Demondim-at-Revelstone thing...are we entirely comfortable that the Demondim were putting on a "show" chasing Roger and the croyel/Jerry towards Revelstone?

How would the Demondim have known (having been snatched from thousands of years in the past) they had a critical role to play in a sham (the role of giving Roger/Jerry credibility by appearing to harry them all the way to the gates)? What else could explain their actions? Or am
I over-thinking this?

It's not possible to over-think SRD.

We know that their befuddlement at the gates of Revelstone was just a front. But what, or who, were they fronting for?

[Aleksandr]

Re: We know that their befuddlement at the gates of Revelstone was just a front. But what, or who, were they fronting for?

Didn't Kastenessen give them orders through Anele?

[aliensporebomb]

I agree that on some levels the entire series is a study on imperfection
and how you can defy your own flaws and inabilities to become in a
sense "perfect" or as perfect as you can be.

Look at the Brathair "I must perforce place one small flaw in my works
...or there will be no work at all".

All of the characters are beset with physical, moral or mental flaws in
one way or another.

So, in some sense the only "perfect" being is Foul in these series and
who'd want to be him?

The books are legion with subplots of characters transcending their
flaws to stand and be true.

So, in a sense the whole thing is about defying self-doubt and then
abating any flaws you may have.

[wayfriend]

I found this in the GI today:

Marcus Huculak: This is intended more as a reaction than a question, and is certainly not intended for publication in the GI unless you have some reaction to it aimed at your other readers, but....

WHAT THE HELL?

How can Linden not -know better?- I can at least understand Elena, as Landwaster is my favorite character in the series, but Linden should certainly have learned something from her example. 3 more years to find out why the Rahynyn didn't stop her and how the Arch could possibly survive for 3 more books with Covenant ripped out of it with wild magic...it's going to be a long wait, and I, like all of us, will be eagerly waiting.

• My personal reaction is, how could Linden do anything else? If you were in her shoes, how would you go about finding Jeremiah WHILE retaining some hope for the Land? After you've thoroughly convinced yourself of your own inadequacy? Sure, she could just go along with the Harrow to reach her son; but then she would be powerless to fight the croyel, never mind to defend the Land. What do you think her choices actually were?
  
  (11/10/2007)

Yeah!

If you think Linden is incompetent, it's because you don't understand what her choices actually were.

[Ur Dead]

Everybody complains how ineffective she was in the second chronicles.
Now they bring that along in this last chronicles.
Now that she has come back she is condemned for making wrong decisions.
She has a darkness in her heart. Well to tell you, Thomas Covenant was the
same way in the first two books. He tried to worm his way out
of everything. It wasn't until TPTP he decided to try something. After the
attack on the Ramen hold, he was left with nothing and a broken ankle.
There he wandered with only one purpose. He had a darkenss on his heart.
That was HATE. There's a whole chapter on that. Sorta like. "I do not forgive"

Linden's only insight was to find Covenant and even then she couldn't
speak to him. Her only decision was to bring him back. A choice that
nobody gave her any iota of what would happened. They all talked in
circles trying to manipulate her into doing some feat that would benefit
themselves. What if Hollian told her she would wake the worm
if she used the Staff and Wild Magic together. What if the Elohim told her what would
happen. Esmer could have told her straight away what's going on.
But they didn't and they knew. If she was as incompetant as everybody believes then
the Elohim messenger would have warned of Beware of the Chosen and Wildweilder instead of the Halfhand.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Re: We know that their befuddlement at the gates of Revelstone was just a front. But what, or who, were they fronting for?

Didn't Kastenessen give them orders through Anele?

Are you saying Katenessen gave the Demondim order through Anele? I don't know.

[dlbpharmd]

Re: We know that their befuddlement at the gates of Revelstone was just a front. But what, or who, were they fronting for?

Didn't Kastenessen give them orders through Anele?

Are you saying Katenessen gave the Demondim order through Anele? I don't know.

It was the "being of fire" that took possession of Anele in the scene, and IIRC at a later point that being is revealed to be Kastenessen.