Kevin's Watch

Near the end of the Second Chronicles Linden used Urvile Lore , and wild magic, to bind Vain, and Findail together, and form a new Staff of Law. Im guessing that when she did this whether she knew it, or not, she placed Findail under a Durance, like The Colossus of the Fall, a Durance meant to enforce his appointment. Perhaps the Urviles have discovered Kastenessen's loop hole, and intend for Linden, or Covenant for that matter to use the Shackles ( Urvile Lore ), and wild magic to make the repairs needed to bind Kastenessen back to his appointment.

Mr. Broken wrote:Near the end of the Second Chronicles Linden used Urvile Lore , and wild magic, to bind Vain, and Findail together, and form a new Staff of Law. Im guessing that when she did this whether she knew it, or not, she placed Findail under a Durance, like The Colossus of the Fall, a Durance meant to enforce his appointment. Perhaps the Urviles have discovered Kastenessen's loop hole, and intend for Linden, or Covenant for that matter to use the Shackles ( Urvile Lore ), and wild magic to make the repairs needed to bind Kastenessen back to his appointment.

I was about to make the same argument.

Well then even if I am wrong, Ill know Im not the only one. Misery loves company.

Rigel wrote:Sorry if this has been posted before, but who do you think they're REALLY for?

I think RC stated at one point that they were for him, but at the time we thought he was TC.

I think we can rule out LF, as the idea of binding him with anything other than white gold doesn't sound right.

We can also rule out the Masters, as the Ur Viles have had ample opportunity to interfere with the Masters' work and have shown no inclination.

While the Sandgorgons are *possible*, I doubt it simply because there are multiples of them. Who would you choose to bind?

The Elohim also are a multitude of personas, but we have a precedent for binding them (Findail / Vain).

I assume (probably wrongfully!) that Linden's "big mistake" is past, and that anything she does after this will pale in comparison to raising TC from the dead (unless SRD goes with the whole "She destroys the land in order to remake it as she sees fit", in which case the Ur Viles could be afraid of her just throwing them out at the time).

So, the interesting list of characters would be:
RC
TC
LA (I doubt it)
Longwrath
The Harrow
The Sandgorgons (I doubt them)
One of the Elohim (Felice?) (Too much repetition?)

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I think if we knew (or could figure out) who the shackles were for, we would have a major clue about the future of the series. After all, the Ur Viles are deathly afraid of someone, and of what they're going to do.

Its LF,no doubt in my mind that its Foul.

I always thought it was for Lord Foul.

Most of the other candidates (like Longwrath, Joan, Roger, Kestenessen) are impossible because none of them were in the picture when the manacles were created (they were made at the same time as Vain). Harrow is not important enough to be the object, and he could be invulnerable to them as well. Likewise the sandgorgons. And I'd have to say no to the Elohim as well. The manacles were portrayed as a different creation than Vain. They were two separate projects so they probably have separate aims and means. The Ur Viles don't hate the Elohim. They just used them because they fit their recipe for Staff-making.

The knowledge of the Ur-Viles about the despiser must be great. For millennia they studied lore at his knees. They're probably the best fit group in the Land to beat him. According to Esmer these manacles made Foul furious. Vain's creation was nothing compared to this.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:I always thought it was for Lord Foul.

Most of the other candidates (like Longwrath, Joan, Roger, Kestenessen) are impossible because none of them were in the picture when the manacles were created (they were made at the same time as Vain).

...

According to Esmer these manacles made Foul furious. Vain's creation was nothing compared to this.

First of all, do we know when they were made? I assumed they were a recent creation, but I'll have to reread it to see.

Second, I don't see how you can say "Vain's creation was nothing compared to this", when Foul tried to destroy all the Ur Viles because they made Vain.

Rigel wrote: First of all, do we know when they were made? I assumed they were a recent creation, but I'll have to reread it to see.

Second, I don't see how you can say "Vain's creation was nothing compared to this", when Foul tried to destroy all the Ur Viles because they made Vain.

There were no Ur Viles in the Land between shortly after WGW and RotE. They time-traveled to the future to the time of Linden's return to the Land.

The manacles couldn't have been a recent creation because then the Ur-viles in Linden's company wouldn't have been so surprised and excited when Esmer revealed the existence of the manacles. He says (I'm paraphrasing) that after making Vain they were not content and made the manacles as well. The twisting of the Ur Viles by the Sunbane only occurs in the middle of WGW, long after the creation of Vain in tWL. The fact that they still live when they meet Covenant & Linden's company says that they have been turned only a couple of days before because these sunbane twisted creation tend to be very short lived.

Because Vain's existence was pretty public from the start (the na-Mohram Raver sees him when Covenant first enter Revelstone) he can't be the reason for Lord Foul's wrath with the Ur Viles.

They can't be for Foul guys. Not only did the Urviles bring them out against Roger (with Kastenessen's hand), but Foul is incorporeal and not of this planet - nothing made ON the Land, FROM the Land, or BY people living on the Land can even touch him, let alone bind him.

That's what made Covenant so important to begin with remember? (It also means that Roger/Linden/Jeremiah might be able to affect Foul however.)

I always thought that Manacles was a creation like Vain?

They probably were, but we don't have many details.

You're all wrong

It isn't Kassy, and it certainly isn't Foul... even in the Second Chronicles; despite the fact Thomas couldn't save the Land from the Sunbane, he had to be the one to defeat Lord Foul; and at the end of the day it's a Foul versus Covenant series; he'll have to be the one to defeat Lord Foul; not the Ur-Viles.

And Kassy is to be redeemed; he won't go back to the Durance.

Vain wasn't (vain) as in the emotion. I think Shackles is 2 creations like Vain that the Ur-Viles have made for their Wurd. Something that we don't have enough information on as to what they are? SRD use of words taken out of their normal use isn't a new thing.

Jerico there is echoing my thoughts pretty well on this subject. If for no other reason, then because it's the most unexpected explanation of manacles on this discussion.

I was just reading this and thought to myself. "What would actually need to be manacled to protect the land?" All the names already mentioned came to mind, but one wasn't mentioned which surprised me. I thought for sure I was gonna read that someone thought they were meant for the Worm of Worlds End. If it was trapped or kept from moving Covenant, or Linden wouldn't have to worry about rousing the worm anymore.

I know it doesn't make much sense, why would Roger bring it up, but that could just be SRD's way of driving us crazy. Who really knows?

It's the Ravers.

The Ur-Viles are seeking redemption through binding those who drove them to evil. The Ravers are the enemies of the Viles more than Foul or anyone. For them, it's personal.

Lord Foul cannot be ultimately defeated by an object or person from the Land. That's why they needed Covenant, Linden et al.

The only real alternatives are for binding either Covenant, Linden or Jeremiah to the creator. Somehow.. I'm not really entertaining that prospect too seriously.

But Definately the Ravers. If the Land does come to an end, and is replaced by somthing new, it will be necessary to bind and incapacitate those ravers so they can't turn that world into a world of misery, and they can't be allowed to let free either, when the Arch of Time collapses..

ninjaboy wrote:It's the Ravers.

The Ur-Viles are seeking redemption through binding those who drove them to evil. The Ravers are the enemies of the Viles more than Foul or anyone. For them, it's personal.

Lord Foul cannot be ultimately defeated by an object or person from the Land. That's why they needed Covenant, Linden et al.

That actually makes the most sense to me but I always expect the unexpected from Donaldson.

And just the way it was hinted by Esmer.......it must be something spectacular.
What else is a threat that needs to be "shackled"?

The Worm perhaps?

Maybe they could shackle TC to The Worm.. That would be fun.. Or TC to Lord Foul.

Something will have to take care of the Ravers though. They are as much a threat to the peace, beauty and wonder of the land as Foul is.

The Manacles cannot be for Foul. He is simplely to powerful for any Lore by the Lands creature to contain him.

Kevin used Earthpower but only reduced him. Foul came back.

In the first Chronicles it was laughter by the spirits and Foamfollower that reduced Foul. Not TC's Wild Magic. Foul came back.

The Second Chronicles, it was Foul himself who used up all his essence on trying to go through TC to break the Arch. Foul reduced himself but he has come back.

The manacles wouldn't hold Foul. He's already in prison.

They have to be for someone else. Wouldn't Vain be a manacle for Findail?
He was the perfect structure for containing the Elohim.
Right now there are two known Elohim dwelling in the land. And the skruj needs to be rebound so they don't cause untold destruction.

Dear Posters and Readers,

I have been casually coming back to the Watch over the last several days without seeing much activity until I caught the most recent posts. This section caught my eye. So here it goes.

The question of the shackles made me think of the Vain/Findail SoL. In the 2nd Chrons TC sees the cause of all of the current ills as the destruction of the on SoL and so set out in TOT to find the One Tree and create a new one. TC's dead knew what he would do. He was presented with Vain to supply this need. But what if TC was wrong about why the staff was needed. He thought that having the new staff would set everything right. We can see that it has not. Maybe the staff was made possible by both the urviles and the Elohim because they saw it as fulfilling a need in the time of the 3rd Chrons instead of the second.

As for the shackles, are they a 'standalone' product? Vain and Findail needed to go together to make a new SoL. If the staff was intended for a different time, then maybe the shackles are necessary for the fulfillment of some ultimate need in a new creation. If I were Foul I would not want to combine with TC. I would want to remain as I am and wreak havoc on the cosmos. But what would the cosmos be like with TC and Foul shackled together? Also, we may find out that the shackles are the catalyst for the merger of Foul and TC.

Just some thoughts.

Damn, I need to reread this.

--A