Shackles

Post by **Rigel** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:30 pm

Sorry if this has been posted before, but who do you think they're REALLY for?

I think RC stated at one point that they were for him, but at the time we thought he was TC.

I think we can rule out LF, as the idea of binding him with anything other than white gold doesn't sound right.

We can also rule out the Masters, as the Ur Viles have had ample opportunity to interfere with the Masters' work and have shown no inclination.

While the Sandgorgons are *possible*, I doubt it simply because there are multiples of them. Who would you choose to bind?

The Elohim also are a multitude of personas, but we have a precedent for binding them (Findail / Vain).

I assume (probably wrongfully!) that Linden's "big mistake" is past, and that anything she does after this will pale in comparison to raising TC from the dead (unless SRD goes with the whole "She destroys the land in order to remake it as she sees fit", in which case the Ur Viles could be afraid of her just throwing them out at the time).

So, the interesting list of characters would be:
RC
TC
LA (I doubt it)
Longwrath
The Harrow
The Sandgorgons (I doubt them)
One of the Elohim (Felice?) (Too much repetition?)

---

I think if we knew (or could figure out) who the shackles were for, we would have a major clue about the future of the series. After all, the Ur Viles are deathly afraid of someone, and of what they're going to do.

Post by **Ur Dead** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:17 pm

The manacles look right now as a good bet for Longwrath. That Giant has the ability to slip out of the normal shackles that are placed on him.

The Ur Viles may have devised a Shackle made from their Viles lore. They are around to help Linden and she has been lucky from being diced and slice by Longwrath.

Since they were made from Vile's Lore the Harrow may know how to counter them or unbind the viles before they use them on him.

Post by **Mr. Broken** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:20 pm

My pitiful theory is this , the manacles........
will be used ...........
To bind Roger ............
to Kastenessen.

Post by **Auleliel** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:27 pm

Interesting idea...

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:42 pm

Whatever they are for has got to be a BIG DEAL.
The last thing the ur-Viles made turned into the Staff of Law (with a little help).
I don't think Longwrath or Roger, The Harrow, The Sandgorgons are anywhere near that category of greatness.

I'm thinking they are to hold together or to bind together the triumvirate of TC, Foul and the Creator.

Post by **Ur Dead** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:57 pm

High Lord Tolkien wrote: I'm thinking they are to hold together or to bind together the triumvirate of TC, Foul and the Creator.

Kevin only reduced Foul and it costed him everything. At least two of them surpass the power of Earth(Land or Worm) and TC does it when the he has the white gold.

And to bind the Creator is to bring the Creator into the world and inside the Arch. And that destroys the Arch.

I see Longwrath but it possible it can be used to bind Foul. Because Foul is imprisoned under (or inside) the Arch. Foul may not have his all glorious power as it is from beyond the Arch. His imprisonment inhibits his abilities. (like Kevin's Dirt does to the people of the Land)
That is why he needs the White Gold.
If Foul was reduced further, the manacles can be a device that stops Foul from growing back to his normal imprisoned level and would be the final link to maintain and stay Foul's ability, to plan to destroy the Arch and escape.

Post by **sweetbread** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:04 am

Hmmm.... reiterating my previous thoughts here, with some recent observations....

the second Staff of Law (which may or may not become the original staff, that remains to be seen) was creating my binding Earthpower (Findail) with Demondim lore (Vain). Assuming that Linden does NOT give Berek her Staff of Law, if the original staff was indeed created from a branch of the One Tree, then I think it's possible that the shackles are indeed the metal heels on the Staff of Law.

Earthpower + Demondim = Staff of Law

In Linden's case, it was Findail + Vain.
In Berek's case, it is the One Tree + Ur Vile Manacles.

Post by **Relayer** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:27 am

I suspect that even though Roger was pretending to be TC, and wanted Linden to become suspicious of the ur-viles, that he actually was telling the literal truth... the Manacles are for Roger.

Post by **sweetbread** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:53 pm

Maybe the manacles bind the wearer to the Land, so that they cannot escape via Jeremiah's contraptions....

Post by **MsMary** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:17 pm

Don't laugh, but when I first read about the shackles, I thought they were for Lord Foul. Guess that's unrealistic, but you never know what those Ur-Viles are capable of.

Post by **Seppi2112** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:33 pm

Considering the previous Vain/Findail connection, it would make the most sense if the manacles were for an Elohim... which makes even more sense then that the urViles brought the manacles out against roger (who is part elohim).

Post by **Mr. Broken** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:39 pm

That is exactly why I theorized that the manacles would be used to bind Roger to Kastenessen, so that both could be dealt with at once.

Post by **wayfriend** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:53 pm

Relayer wrote:I suspect that even though Roger was pretending to be TC, and wanted Linden to become suspicious of the ur-viles, that he actually was telling the literal truth... the Manacles are for Roger.

OR .... Roger was telling the literal truth, and they were for Thomas.

I find that plausible. And it has synergy with HLT's theory, which I think is in the ballpark but not quite right.

Then again, we have two characters with manacle issues. These could be decoys to the reader, as this series is filled with ambiguity. Or they are an obvious candidate.

Maybe to bind Joan and Longwrath together? Someone else said that perhaps "Slay her" means Joan. Perhaps he is channeling Findail, and would rather see Joan slain rather than himself manacled to her.

I also like someone's idea that "manacle" may not mean what we think it means. It may not mean "handcuffs", just as Kevin's Dirt is not dirt. It could be metaphoric. Or it could be an obscure meaning that only Donaldson knows of.

The "man" in "maincles" does mean "hand". Whic could refer to a hand, or a half-handed person, or a person with a strange hand, or a deck hand, or a hand of cards.

Post by **mortem** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:40 pm

My bet is that they are for Foul. Okay so you can't kill him, you don't want him loose on the universe, so (like the immortal guy in Heroes) you put him somewhere that all he can do is rage and scream but not affect anyone ever again.

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:50 pm

mortem wrote:My bet is that they are for Foul. Okay so you can't kill him, you don't want him loose on the universe, so (like the immortal guy in Heroes) you put him somewhere that all he can do is rage and scream but not affect anyone ever again.

That was my initial thought, and it would fit with my belief that they will be used for something of immense proportions but I hope it's even bigger which is why I went for the Big 3, not just 1 of the 3.
But I'd be satisfied with it just for Foul too.

Post by **MsMary** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:34 pm

Okay, so maybe my first thought wasn't so crazy, if others thought they could be for Foul, also.

Some of the other theories are very plausible, also.

Post by **wayfriend** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:25 pm

What is the ultimate answer to Despite? Lock it up!

Somehow, that doesn't seem like Donaldson. Sargeant Null, perhaps. But not Donaldson.

But seriously... this time Covenant is supposed to find the final answer to Lord Foul. But he's also supposed to find a final answer to his Inner Despiser as well. The final answer to living with our dark sides.

Post by **Rigel** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:33 pm

Not only does it not seem like a good answer to Despite, but... isn't that rather unfair to LF himself?

I mean, sure, he's done some pretty rotten stuff, but does he deserve to be locked up and imprisoned for eternity? This is a sentence that can NOT end for him. It's worse than a "life sentence", being that life itself can end (whether you're a believer in the afterlife or not).

Honestly, if I got locked in some pit, and the only way out was to walk over an anthill, and some lame a** dude says, "Don't do that, you'll kill all the ants!" I would laugh in his face, squish the freakin' ants, and get out of there.

Post by **Mr. Broken** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:21 am

He got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, and the creator slammed the lid.

Post by **Relayer** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:26 am

wayfriend wrote:What is the ultimate answer to Despite? Lock it up!

Somehow, that doesn't seem like Donaldson. Sargeant Null, perhaps. But not Donaldson.

But seriously... this time Covenant is supposed to find the final answer to Lord Foul. But he's also supposed to find a final answer to his Inner Despiser as well. The final answer to living with our dark sides.

Agreed. But *Covenant* isn't the one who made the Manacles. The ur-viles did. That may be *their* attempt to stop Foul (one which I don't think would work), but it wouldn't be Covenant's.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Shackles

Shackles