Kevin's Watch

Along these same lines - from chap 10, TIW:

Covenant gripped the Lord’s gaze, and said, “Tell me something, Mhoram. How did you get away – when that Raver caught you – near Foul’s Creche?”

Mhoram answered with a conscious serenity, a refusal of dismay, which looked like in his gold-flecked eyes. “The Bloodguard with me were slain. But when samadhi raver touched me, he knew me as I knew him. He was daunted.”

Where was Terrel on this trip?

I know, there is no answer to this question - just think it's a little strange that he would not have accompanied the lord who was under his care.

Maybe I'm a little OCD on this issue, forgive me if I rave. It seems to me that SRD gets a little confused on who and where his Bloodguard are.

i imagine that terrel had a more important job to do...

mhoram couldn't have possably expected to be attacked by a raver...

notice that he says "bloodguard" rather than naming an individual, i take this to mean more than one... so why would mhoram need terrel if hehad more than one bloodguard with him.

i think terrel had more faith in his troops than you do... possably justifiably...

Fist and Faith wrote:Maybe they didn't have a Loresraat back then. Maybe Berek, Damelon, Loric, and Kevin were the only ones using that Lore, and they surrounded themselves with other people and beings who had other ways of power.

That's an interesting idea! Alas, it does not seem to be one of SRD's ideas. From TPTP, chapter 2:

He stood on the brink of the Land's doom without Variol's foresight or Prothall's ascetic strength or Osondrea's dour intransigence or Elena's fire; and he had not power enough to match the frailest Lord in the weakest Council led by Kevin or Loric or Damelon or Berek Heartthew the Lord-Fatherer.

Since a Lord is defined as one who has mastered both the Sword and Staff portions of the First Ward, and the title of Lord, like the Lore itself, comes down from the Old Lords, we must assume that the definition of a Lord applies to New and Old Lords both. Therefore, other persons besides the High Lords themselves must have had the necessary qualifications to be Lords. (Lord Foul among them.)

But I do not suppose that the number of Lords was ever very large, even under Kevin. The Lords' table in the Close, as described in LFB chapter 14, probably could not have seated more than twenty people without crowding. It must have been unusual at least for there to be more Lords than that, or they would have made alterations to the furniture.

bump - Durris, Cail and Haruchai - I would appreciate if you would give your thoughts and comments to question #2 and the responses given.

Thanks, Don

dlbpharmd wrote:So, Tuvor was first mark, and (if my memory is right) Morin was assigned to Mhoram in LFB. I don't recall that Korik was assigned to a lord, but I presume he wasn't, since he went to Seareach, and it doesn't seem logical from him to step down from this high post of guardianship, especially in times of war.

So, my question is: why wasn't Bannor assigned to a Lord? Doesn't it seem strange that one of the best Bloodguard was just sitting around, until the arrival of TC?

When Covenant and Foamfollower initially arrived at Revelstone in LFB, First Mark Tuvor was the first person to meet them--he, with some unnamed comrades, was on sentry duty over the front gates. When Warmark Quaan introduced the visitors and asked him if places were ready, he replied, "The orders are given. Bannor and Korik await."

We're told no more than that; since both Bannor and Korik were members of the original high command, I'm inclined to agree with Ylva Kresh's suggestion:

Ylva Kresh wrote:To be a leader cannot be the same as a good bodyguard (eventhough I think all of them were at least good bodyguards).

It seems as though the First Mark was always the protector of the High Lord, ex officio, but perhaps a subset of the senior commanders always remained available for "matters arising," and especially in wartime when additional, tactically or strategically important, leadership-requiring duties were apt to become necessary without advance notice.

Also, perhaps there are implications of diplomacy in this assignment. Foamfollower was an official legate from the Giants of Seareach, the Land's good friends for millennia, and Covenant was a stranger, of which the Lords knew nothing except that he could be either very dangerous or very important or both. Assigning seniors rather than enlisted men (although the Bloodguard hardly could have had "enlisted" as we think of them; the custom of ritual combat, and the solemn obligations of the Vow, must have kept them all to an elite standard! In _Gilden-Fire_, new postulant Tull very nearly felled Korik in ritual combat.) did the visitors honor. (Incidentally, it's made clear that Korik and Foamfollower were old friends--given the Giant lifespan, probably for centuries.)

I too was a bit surprised that Bannor became First Mark; though his conversations with Covenant earlier on establish the antiquity of his service, only in Gilden-Fire (which I read after the main First Chronicles sequence) is it said that he had been among the leaders.

It's possible either that Terrel and Bannor decided by combat which of them would succeed to the post of First Mark, or that Terrel deferred to Bannor for a reason known only to themselves. As Covenant began to be seen as a friend of the Land rather than a potential foe, perhaps having been his protector conferred additional moral authority on Bannor.

(Terrel is an extremely peripheral character; all I remember is that he was Mhoram's protector in TIW while High Lord Elena was living. There's a scene just before "Tull's Tale" where Mhoram has a prophetic nightmare and is blasting Lords' Fire in all directions, still half asleep, until Terrel shakes him awake with the warning, "Lord! Corruption will see you!" Terrel is also the one who hits Tull when the younger Bloodguard begins to lose control of himself while trying to tell the tale of the Giants' demise.)

As far as Kevin not being able to defeat Foul, he did defeat him. The same way Covenant defeated Foul, but remember Foul cannot die, for Good to exist Evil must be there also. This is part of the paradox of the white gold. To truly kill Foul I beleive the Arch of Time must be destroyed along with the Land.

Kevin didn't really defeat Foul, so to speak. The RoD weakened Foul, but keep in mind that the RoD was Foul's idea the entire time. Covenant (Foamfollower actually) defeated Foul via laughter, the polar opposite to Foul's inherent despair- Kevin merely allowed his own despair to turn him into a servant of the Despiser.

dlbpharmd wrote:Along these same lines - from chap 10, TIW:

Covenant gripped the Lord’s gaze, and said, “Tell me something, Mhoram. How did you get away – when that Raver caught you – near Foul’s Creche?”

Mhoram answered with a conscious serenity, a refusal of dismay, which looked like in his gold-flecked eyes. “The Bloodguard with me were slain. But when samadhi raver touched me, he knew me as I knew him. He was daunted.”

Where was Terrel on this trip?

I know, there is no answer to this question - just think it's a little strange that he would not have accompanied the lord who was under his care.

Maybe I'm a little OCD on this issue, forgive me if I rave. It seems to me that SRD gets a little confused on who and where his Bloodguard are.

You found the continuity flaw, dlbpharmd. Terrel should have been with Mhoram, since there is no other recorded time when the bloodguard assigned to a particular Lord did not accompany that Lord. In Gildenfire, Korik even mentions this when considering whether or not to take Koral (who warded Lord Amatin) or Morril (Lord Callindrill) to Seareach, deciding not to because they had a right to remain with the Lords that they protected. If this is the case, then surely Terrel had the right to go to the Spoiled Plains with Mhoram. The only explanation for this would be that something important came up that a senior Bloodguard, in this case Terrel, needed to handle. The alternative is a continuity error, and I don't want to believe that.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Was there something in the plot that SRD wanted to keep Terrel alive for?

Bannor, Runnik, and Terrel were the three seniors who killed the corrupted Korik, Sill, and Doar.

It makes sense both militarily (the best fighters) and morally (those who would find this battle the most traumatic) that only the remaining high commanders could fight those corrupted. But when I first read it I didn't think of that, Terrel was just another Bloodguard (I hadn't read Gilden-Fire yet the first time through). So it's an open question whether this merited disrupting continuity at an earlier point in the story.

I have always wondered about Terrell as well in the matter of the Mhoram/Raver confrontation. It is definate that more than one Bloodguard was killed on that occasion, as it is said in TIW that:

And as he spoke, Troy was reminded that he was the youngest of the bloodguard - a Haruchai no older than Troy himself. Tull had come to Revelstone to replace one of the Bloodguard who had been slain during Lord Mhoram's attempt to scout the Shattered Hills.

It is also a definate thing that Terell was the guardian of Lord Mhoram until he became the High Lord, and came under the guardianship of the First Mark. Therefore three possibilities spring to mind:

1. a continuity glitch
2. Terrell was along on the trip but had become seperated from the group (was out scouting, perhaps?)
3. Terrell had chosen not to accompany "his" Lord on a very dangerous mission, which, quite frankly, seems incomprehensible to me...

Perhaps someone could ask about this in the gradual interview at some point....

I'm just speculating here, but do you suppose Mhoram had asked Terrel to send someone else--"I can't risk you, I need you to come back to"? Or would that kind of request have triggered the Kevin-receptor and made Terrel obligated to disobey?

Just a thought on #2. Since Foul was for all intents and purposes gone from the time of the RoD until the events of LFB, What did the Bloodguard have to occupy their time with during those years? Protection from shaving cuts? There was no real threat to the Land or the Lords, so I think it's safe to assume that the Bloodguard were not at the Lord's sides at all times (Like Tuvor meeting TC at Revelstone). I think that Bannor's Lord had passed, and he had not received another charge. He was certainly worthy.

Cail!! Welcome back!

I am only a young apprentice in the midst of many Haruchai masters I have to agree with Cail. Bannors lord probably just died and he didn't have another charge yet. Maybe they liked to keep at least one of the five leaders free, so that they were readily available for when something important happened (like when TC showed up).
This is only my humble opinion, as I have not even read Gilden-Fire yet (shocking, I know).

Haruchai, when you do read Gilden-Fire you'll find that youth/novicehood vs. age/experience is different for the Haruchai, and particularly under the Vow, than the view your "apprentice" disclaimer implies. Tull, a rookie Bloodguard, has a ritual-combat encounter with Korik that earns the elder Bloodguard's permanent respect.

So, no disclaimers are necessary.

Cail wrote:Just a thought on #2. Since Foul was for all intents and purposes gone from the time of the RoD until the events of LFB, What did the Bloodguard have to occupy their time with during those years? Protection from shaving cuts?.

Shaving Cuts? LOL!! I never imagined the Haruchai shaving. I never even pictured them growing a beard or having stubble or anything. did anyone else think about that?

Hmm, I thought Cail meant that the Bloodguard would be protecting the Lords from razorblade ineptitude, not themselves. It makes sense to me. I can imagine that after the whole debacle with crazy Kevin, the Bloodguard had lowered expectations of the Lords. The Bloodguard could no longer trust a Lord to shave himself competently, never mind use power. They didn't want some goofy Lord to go bonkers over a bad shave and start another RoD because he was mad as hell and wasn't going to take it anymore.

As for the supposed continuity glitch involving Terrell and Mhoram...sure, it's possible SRD had a brain seizure on this detail. But I prefer to think it was on purpose.

Those of you who will be attending Elohimfest (lucky bastards!) may wish to pose the questions in this thread to SRD. They could be included on your "Questions To Drive Donaldson Mad" list. I have some of my own:

-Do the Haruchai prefer regular briefs or bikini briefs? Or boxer shorts?
-Did Mhoram prefer regular or decaf coffee? Or was he a tea person?

bump

Wow, this is a blast from the past.

Yeah, I meant protect the Lords fro shaving cuts for exactly the reason that MM stated.....They had no reason to trust the Lords at all.