Two more questions

[dlbpharmd]

1) Before the RoD, we're told that Foul infiltrated the Council of Lords and became something of a right hand man to Kevin. However, he betrayed the council, slaughtered the lords at Mt. Thunder, and forced Kevin into the RoD. My question is - how was Foul so powerful? At this time, he had no Illearth Stone, and certainly did not have white gold. Kevin, on the other hand, had the Staff of Law and a complete mastery of Earthpower. Why couldn't Kevin defeat him?

2) My memory is incomplete on the Bloodguard - I recall that the Haruchai marched to Revelstone at the time of Kevin with 5 leaders - Bannor, Tuvor, Morin, Korik and one other that I can't recall. Tuvor was first mark in LFB, and had presumably been first mark since the Bloodguard returned post RoD. Morin became first mark after Tuvor's death. Korik led the doomed mission to Seareach. And, of course, Bannor assumed the protection of TC, and was first mark when the maimed Bloodguard attacked Revelstone. In Gildenfire, we learned that Korik demonstrated his ability to lead the mission to Seareach by proving himself in combat against his Bloodguard brethen. From this, one can make some logical assumptions:

1) the five original leaders won their positions through combat;
2) these five Haruchai were the strongest and best of the original army;
3) of these five, Tuvor was the best.

So, Tuvor was first mark, and (if my memory is right) Morin was assigned to Mhoram in LFB. I don't recall that Korik was assigned to a lord, but I presume he wasn't, since he went to Seareach, and it doesn't seem logical from him to step down from this high post of guardianship, especially in times of war.

So, my question is: why wasn't Bannor assigned to a Lord? Doesn't it seem strange that one of the best Bloodguard was just sitting around, until the arrival of TC?

Thanks in advance!

[CovenantJr]

As regards question 2, I really have no idea. As regards question 1, I personally am of the opinion that no Lordly Lore ( ) would be sufficient to defeat Foul. Also, he may not have been in possession of the Illearth Stone at that point, but he had effectively had forever to accumulate his strength. That was his first real defeat, as I understand it, so he had been nurturing his power since time immemorial.

[Ylva Kresh]

perhaps it was not a matter of being "the best" Haruchai, but rather the best bloodguard for the job. To be a leader cannot be the same as a good bodyguard (eventhough I think all of them were at least good bodyguards). Perhaps Bannor earlier had been a Lord-guard, but since they don´t grow old, this (or these) lord(s) might be long since dead. Perhaps.

[Ryzel]

I do not think that the Lords were escorted by Bloodguard on a regular basis at all. This was probably decided on a case by case basis whenever there was a need for them to be. In TC's case I think maybe the Bloodguard assigned Bannor to make sure TC did not destroy the Land with his uncontrollable white gold.

[Fist and Faith]

SOOOO very difficult to answer these questions!

1) We've speculated - and that's really all we can do - about Foul's abilities before. No idea! You gotta assume that he could use Kevin's Lore. How the heck could he become a Lord, "on [Kevin's] right side in the Council for long years," no less, without being able to use the Lore? Yet we never see him use it. Did his powers allow him to fake it??? But what are these powers??? We sure never see them. In The Unbeliever, he tells Covenant (again, how reliable a source of info is he?) that he is more than a match for Covenant, even without the Illearth Stone. Apparently not!, but what power was he talking about?

2) I'm leaning in Ryzel's direction. We have no way of knowing how many Old Lords there were at the time the Vow was taken, but I'd be surprised if it was 500. So lots of Bloodguard probably were there to act as an attack force. When it comes right down to it, each Lord has a personal bodyguard, but that can change when the Bloodguard think it necessary.

[Forestal]

1) as we know foul was adept in perception-alteration... after all otherwise the lord's land-sight would have routed him out long ago... so i assume foul either could use kevin's lore, could fake using kevin's lore, or make the lords think he was using kevin's lore. - this is assuming that foul needed to use kevin's lore, after all, what did kevin need 2 fight?

- this assumes that foul started off evil... was foul really able to evade land-sight or was foul not really that evil to start with? i cant believe that foul could stand infront of kevin and b his best buddy.... i think foul wasn't evil to begin with... i seem 2 remember soemthing about kevin sensing something about foul in the leadup to his betrayal.. and that was why kevin sent another lord to treatchers gorge instead... personally i think foul changed over the years... kinda matured, from a pain the in creator's ass to a massive thorn in his side... and that would be why covenant came when he did... but anyway.

2) I cant think of a better explaination:

Perhaps Bannor earlier had been a Lord-guard, but since they don´t grow old, this (or these) lord(s) might be long since dead. Perhaps.

didn't bannor say somewhere that he guarded high-lord kevin? mayb i'm tripping, but i thought it said that somewhere.... obviously i cant check...

[Kinslaughterer]

I remember reading somewhere that Foul's subtle manipulations were complete and Kevin could not stop him. Foul was the infiltrator and his armies marched where he told them to go. He had 1st hand knowledge of the Warward's movements meaning he could nearly always catch them by surprise. Of course, the other lords were killed at Treacher's Gorge leaving Kevin to fight Foul alone.
It was a perfect plan if it worked. The lords focused myopically at Foul's Creche while Foul was sitting in the Close of Revelstone.

As for the Bloodguard, I think the were simply assigned based on importance. Certain lords were more adventurous than others, those lords got better Bloodguard because they'd need them as opposed to those staying in the safety of Revelstone.

[duchess of malfi]

The fifth Bloodguard leader was Terrel, who was assigned to Lord Mhoram until he became High Lord and Bannor became First Mark.

Bloodguard assignments seem to have been made, at least in part, on the basis of which of the two clans the man originated from, or at least that is the impression I got from reading Gilden Fire. It seemed to me that they liked to balance things out between men from the two clans. Sometimes other things are also factored in, such as wanting a younger and less experienced man to come along on an important mission for experience, as seemed to be the case with at least one Bloodguard that Korik chose for his Sea Reach party.

It is also seems possible that they wanted to leave one or two high ranking Bloodguard unassigned to Lords at any given time, in case such a man was needed for unexpected and extraordinary duties -- such as leading a mission, or guarding a possibly dangerous stranger to the Land...

[Fist and Faith]

Foul was evil long before he became Foul, before he was thrown into the Arch of Time. As Despite, he planted nasty banes into the Earth as the Creator was making it. We're not talking about practical jokes, at least not judging by the Illearth Stone, but nasty evil stuff.

As for Foul needing to use Kevin's Lore, that's a good point. Who knows? Maybe they didn't have a Loresraat back then. Maybe Berek, Damelon, Loric, and Kevin were the only ones using that Lore, and they surrounded themselves with other people and beings who had other ways of power.

duchess,
I think you're right on all that. We just don't know enough, but your information is right, and your guesses sound good to me.

[W.B.]

I remember a while back reading a discussion about what is evil in the books, and something that came up was deception, so I'm guessing Foul's power/ability had something to do with an ability for deception. Deception helped out by Kevin's Lore? Why not?

[Forestal]

yeah... kevin's lore was deceptive in itself... as we see from the oath of peace... the OoT limits kevin's lore and such means that it is not the peaceful magic that the lords thought it was.. to begin with neway...

it makes sense to me that foul would and could make very good use of kevin's lore...

[W.B.]

Anohter reason Lord Foul was so popular could have been...his overwhelming underarm odor!

[variol son]

It is also seems possible that they wanted to leave one or two high ranking Bloodguard unassigned to Lords at any given time, in case such a man was needed for unexpected and extraordinary duties -- such as leading a mission, or guarding a possibly dangerous stranger to the Land...

I got the impression that, until Mhoram joined the Council, that the only one of the five original leaders of the Haruchai army to ward someone personally was Tuvor, who as First Mark was responsible for the High Lord. The others seemed to be available for things such as the mission to Seareach, or to ward extra special guests, such as Bannor escorted TC and Korik Foamfollower when they arrived at Revelstone in LFB. I always took the fact that Mhoram was warded by Terrel, one of the five leaders, to be a bit of an anomoly, and I assumed that this hinted at something that the Bloodguard saw in Mhoram. I am assuming in this that the First Mark decided which specific Bloodguard to assign to which Loed or task.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[dlbpharmd]

I appreciate everyone's comments.

To me, having the Bloodguard "decide" on who guards or does not guard a Lord seems inconsistent with Gildenfire. The impression from Gildenfire is these postings were determined by combat.

Another point - Terrel wards Mhoram in LFB and TIW, then suddenly Bannor is first mark in TPTP? Obviously, we know why - Bannor is a more central character than Terrel, bringing more life to the issue of Bannor bringing the Vow to an end. This is, however, a continuity flaw. The best way to solve this is to have Terrel die at the end of TIW, perhaps at the battle of Garroting Deep.

[Believer]

2) Why assume Bannor wasn't doing anything? It seems like he could have been reassigned when TC came around. I'm not following your logic completely there, nor on why Terrel's guarding Mhoram implies he had a higher rank than Bannor's guarding Covenant

1) I assumed the land-sight is like the test of truth - if the one being seen far surpasses the one seeing, there isn't much the seer can see. (hehe) So Foul might not have had to shield himself much at all, because he's more powerful than anyone else.

Not sure why he's more powerful though. I assume it's because he's an ancient power, not touchable by earthpower, all that sort of thing. Also why the people from the Land couldn't see Covenant.

I assume (?) they could see Troy, but I'm not sure if Troy could see Covenant...??

[Forestal]

i think troy made it fairly obvious that he could see covenant... i mean could anyone have hated TC more than troy?

[dlbpharmd]

Why assume Bannor wasn't doing anything? It seems like he could have been reassigned when TC came around. I'm not following your logic completely there, nor on why Terrel's guarding Mhoram implies he had a higher rank than Bannor's guarding Covenant

Your point is well taken. I recently re-read LFB, so this issue is more clear to me. It is entirely possible that Bannor was reassigned. TC was an enigma, a possible threat - and it makes perfect sense to have one of the top 5 Bloodguard guarding him.

As to your other point - maybe I'm not making much sense at all. It wouldn't be the first time, probably won't be the last.

[variol son]

To me, having the Bloodguard "decide" on who guards or does not guard a Lord seems inconsistent with Gildenfire. The impression from Gildenfire is these postings were determined by combat.

That's what I meant. The High Lord or another Lord gives an order, and the First Mark sees that it is met. However this is decided, by combat or otherwise, isn't the issue.

Another point - Terrel wards Mhoram in LFB and TIW, then suddenly Bannor is first mark in TPTP? Obviously, we know why - Bannor is a more central character than Terrel, bringing more life to the issue of Bannor bringing the Vow to an end. This is, however, a continuity flaw. The best way to solve this is to have Terrel die at the end of TIW, perhaps at the battle of Garroting Deep.

Not necessarily. Osondrea and Elena obviously had personal Bloodguard before they became the High Lord, but when they were promoted, the First Mark took over their care as it's his job to guard the High Lord. The same happens with Mhoram when he becomes High Lord and Bannor becomes First Mark after TIW. I would guess that their former guard went to do another task.

Also, we know that Terrel is still alive after TIW because he went out with Fisrt Mark Bannor and Runnik to fight Korik, Doar and Sill. So my thought is that when he became High Lord, Mhoram was guarded by the First Mark, who in trhis case was Bannor because he won the job through combat. His former guard, Terrel, did another task.

Does that all make sense? I hope so.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Fist and Faith]

Makes perfect sense.

[Forestal]

yup, its like clear mountain water... if it wasn't completely not related to mountain water

speaking of mountain water... what would the water from melenkurion skyweir taste like?