Thomas Covenant, hero?

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Landwaster
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Post by Landwaster »

Blue_Spawn wrote:By the way, nothing can persuade me into seeing him as a hero if I happened to be a hardass conservative (like one of those aristicrats during the French revolution).
Let me say I'm NOT trying to persuade you. I'm only stating my own opinion. I'm sure that some, although few, people may have read the whole book and yet still agreed with you that the rape was not in-synch or necessary.

BUT I do believe that other events in the story are worse than TC's rape of Lena. In fact, at one stage, TC actually mutters to himself "What do you do for an encore, Foul? Rape children?" I can't remember what it was he was talking about (anyone?), but by crikey it opened my eyes to what was happening in the Land AND to how TC was affected by it.
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Post by Blue_Spawn »

Arg, dun kill me!

I'd prolly finish the first book by now if it weren't for homework and tests.
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Post by Landwaster »

Ok quick NOBODY elaborate on what I asked for above! :D

PS : I think personally that Blue_Spawn's stance on the scene is a fair one (even while I don't agree with it), and this discussion is enhanced by that inclusion. I don't think Blue_Spawn should be pressured to change the subject, not to mention the stance! Dissension can be healthy.
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Post by Worm of Despite »

Unless the said dissension is in discordance with a tribe of Covenant fans. :wink:
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Post by danlo »

SRD wrote TCTC way b4 Gap (or any forays into Sci-Fi)--Blue_Spawn you have alot of work to do b4 you comment any further.
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Post by duchess of malfi »

Blue Spawn said:
By the way, nothing can persuade me into seeing him as a hero if I happened to be a hardass conservative (like one of those aristicrats during the French revolution).
Ummm, what exactly does conservatism have to do with this issue? If you read through various threads, especially in the politics forum, you will see that people of all ends of the political spectrum come here.

I'm not picking on you -- rather I am trying to understand your point? Further clarification would be most welcome. :)
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Post by Skyweir »

I understand your reservation with TC Blue_Spawn .. I really can. I felt the exact same way with Angus of SRD's gap series .. but imho .. he is way more reprehensible than TC could ever be ..

I also do not wish to persuade you into thinking one way above another .. your own opinion is your own .. ;)

and your opinion is welcome here! As is anyone elses ;) It isnt easy getting beyond the rape scene .. If you do decide to read on, you will appreciate what SRD intended to explore when he chose the character of TC as his protagonist .. TC was an anti-hero because he never wanted to be a hero.

SRD shows us that we can find good in everyone .. and that all can overcome weaknesses in ourselves. Basically that humans are innately more than circumstance dictates.
Lord Foul wrote:Sure you can. You did read the books, right? Even rapists have their humanity. And I wouldn't call Covenant a rapist. I say that if it’s a human being then it can bring itself from its lowest moral point to that of a hero.
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Post by Blue_Spawn »

That was supposed to be a joke thingie...you know, cos conservatives are people that don't change their minds about things no matter what they are told.

Haha, get it? HA.

....

You people take things soo seriously.


Danlo: I think that I have the choice to talk about whatever I want to. The fact that I have not read as much as the rest on this forum may limit me, but it doesn't mean I can't discuss things at all. In fact, by not reading any furthur into the Lord Foul's Bane novel, I hold a point of view which can no longer be held by anyone that has finished the series. Its unique from everybody else's (for now) due to the reason that beggining of Ch8 is as far as I got. You could observe a new perspective here.

Btw...I'm gonna read it most likely. But there are certain things right now that block my recreational activities.
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Post by duchess of malfi »

I think that I have the choice to talk about whatever I want to.
Well, I think that many people have said that...in fact many people have welcomed you and your dissenting viewpoint.
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Post by Landwaster »

I didn't even get the 'conservative' joke ... but then I'm exempt because I'm an aussie, we don't call people 'conservatives' here much, here their either liberals or bleeding hearts :D

( liberal to us is the opposite of liberal to you guys, politically. Liberal = conservative in Australia. Its confusing :) )
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Post by Blue_Spawn »

duchess of malfi wrote:
I think that I have the choice to talk about whatever I want to.
Well, I think that many people have said that...in fact many people have welcomed you and your dissenting viewpoint.
And that is why I love them all. (No sarcasm in that either).


P.S. Actually...I never really saw that part as THAT big of a deal.... I just like to make a ruckusss!
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Post by Seafoam Understone »

Blue_Spawn wrote: You people take things soo seriously.

Perhaps we do, but only because we love the series so much and have learned to see into it deeper than "first timers" that we defend it. Sometimes too vigorously. Forgive us. :)
Btw...I'm gonna read it most likely. But there are certain things right now that block my recreational activities.


Great...keep us informed and feel free to ask anything that puzzles you. We'll answer as best as we may without spoiling it.

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Post by Roynish »

As I am new to this forum I am sure the "rape scene" has been discussed at length many times. It is surely the most violent and disturbing incident to base a "hero" on in the history of fantasy. I think anyway.
And it is impossible to defend. And as we see time does not heal the wounds imposed on the direct characters involved with Lena. Well there is of course the incident where Elena kisses him.
He is the flawed hero of fantasy literature. I am reading The Illearth War now for the fifth time and Covenants abscence for much of the book makes this chronicle seem less original. But then the violence at Seareach is abominable. The description of the giants demise is truly awful. But necessary. The sense of evil is vividly portrayed.
Anyway. Covenant is a lit. hero for me. He struggles with demons. Something I can relate too.
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Post by Revan »

Some of you have mentioned that Thomas was possessed by "self-pity"; I don't agree. You cannot feel sorry for something you hate, or rarely can. I mean imagine someone came along and raped, abused and then killed all your family; Could you feel sorry for that person if they were sentenced to death? No, of course not, you'd hate them too much. Which is exactly why Thomas doesn't pity himself, because he hates himself too much.
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Post by Seafoam Understone »

First Mark Tuvor wrote:Some of you have mentioned that Thomas was possessed by "self-pity"; I don't agree. You cannot feel sorry for something you hate, or rarely can. I mean imagine someone came along and raped, abused and then killed all your family; Could you feel sorry for that person if they were sentenced to death? No, of course not, you'd hate them too much. Which is exactly why Thomas doesn't pity himself, because he hates himself too much.
True, TC was full of self loathing and hatred... and pity.
It is not so impossible to forgive even the most heineous of crimes. Takes some doing but it is possible. Even at the end of WGW Covenant must've found somewhere deep inside him to forgive all that he had done and didn't do to save the land.
The love of Linden Avery helped him be able to find that small shred of compassion that remained. At the risk of sounding like a mushy-mouthed, tallowed backed wimp :roll: ; when there is love there is everything and nothing is impossible.
As the old man promised LA : Be true you will not fail however he may assail you, there is love also in the world.
She helped TC redeem himself as well as the Land. It was her love that done it, that made it possible.

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Post by Landwaster »

Self-hatred is what had kept TC alive in our world.
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Post by birdandbear »

I read the chrons all the way through probably once every 2-3 years.( And, as an aside, it's amazing how much difference just a couple of years makes in your perceptions of this story. Does that ever stop? God I hope not!) But that has nothing to do with what I was going to say, which was this: The last time I read them, two things really struck me as they never had before. One was how fundamentally compassionate Covenant is, toward everyone but himself. He is a passionate man, and one of his greatest passions is the victimhood of others. He blindly (and endearingly) leaps to the defense of anyone he sees as helpless. He actually accuses Mhoram of torturing Dhukka, 8O because Dhukka's pain cried out so loudly to him that logic fled, and he became angry at the nearest and therefore most likely source of the creature's torment. Over and over, you see him bleed for anyone and everyone he meets that suffers because he is powerless to help them. Funny. The first time I read the books, (when I was 14) I came away with the impression that Covenant was kind of an emotionless bastard when it came to anyone's circumstances but his own. :roll: Now I see that he is exactly the opposite. His heart breaks every time there is some innocent bystander he can't save. He bleeds. And his compassion is far reaching. It's breadth covers everyone from the murdered children at Soaring Woodhelvin, to the very ur-viles that killed them. From poor lost Lena, to mad Pietten. We see this even in his own world, when first he offers the beggar his wedding ring, all that remains of his former self:
It was an icon of himself. It reminded him of where he had been and where he was - of promises made and broken, companionship lost, helplessness - and of his vestigial humanity.
And he gives it to a stranger on the street!
And then, even that's not enough for him. He offers the man even more:
"Look, is there anything I can do for you? Food? a place to stay? You can have what I've got."
Okay. I'll stop there. I said there were two things, so I better be gettin' on to my other point, if I have one. ;)

The other thing that struck me is kind of tangential to the compassion thing. I was amazed this time, at how I never realized how physically, foolishly, straight up brave the crazy SOB can be. He has a bad habit of flinging himself into the midst of battle pretty much unarmed that somehow escaped me in previous readings. At Soaring, he jumps out of the pit into the middle of a hoard of ur-viles to defend the old Lords, armed with nothing but a knife. Sure, he has the ring, but what good is it to him at that point? He does the same at the Celebration of Spring. He attacks the Lurker of the Sarangrave single-handedly, just running at it and yelling at first. He leaps into space with no idea how he plans to help Elena, only that he has to follow her if she is to have any hope. Mostly I'm referring to instances in the first trilogy, before he was able to use the Wild Magic on any kind of consistent basis. He doesn't know how to fight, he's a scrawny guy, and you would, given his general attitude, expect him to let others do his physical fighting for him. But he cannot just sit by and let innocent lives be lost, just because he doesn't know how to use his ring. Instead he leaps unarmed into the fray, seeking to protect by waving his arms and yelling, if that's all he can do. And then Bannor has to work like hell to save his silly, noble hide.

Hero? Fits the description in my book admirably. :Hail: :Hail: :Hail:

umm....did I go off topic? I've been rambling so long I'm not sure what topic this is anymore. :oops:


BTW: In the revised edition of Stephen King's The Gunslinger, King makes reference to TCTC on the very first page of the introduction. ;)


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Post by duchess of malfi »

Well done, Birdy! :Hail: :Hail: :Hail: :Hail: :Hail: :Hail:

And I think I have about ten years and therefore a couple of extra rereads on you, and
NO, FINDING NEW THINGS NEVER STOPS!!

that is one of the joys and glories of Donaldson's writing to me -- so many layers of meaning...I will probably be rereading these books until I die, and I'm sure I will still be finding new layers of meaning, new depths of emotion... :D
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Post by amanibhavam »

That first post of this thread summarizes everything up beautifullz - I'm thinking of translating it into my native tongue.

As for the rape: we all have our dark spots in our souls. Some of us act upon those dark moments, others have the luck to avoid those moments. But I think very few of us were ever put into such extreme plight as Covenant. I myself couldn't predict how I would behave in such a situation.
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Post by Furls Fire »

Oh well said Bird!! You mirrored my sentiments exactly!! :) :)
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


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...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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