Thomas Covenant, hero?

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Furls Fire
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Thomas Covenant, hero?

Post by Furls Fire »

Thomas Covenant, hero.

Hmmm, I have to say, to me, he was indeed a hero. Oh, there were times that I raved at him, called him heartless, cruel, montrous, etc. Many times I wanted to strangle him, shout in his face "don't you know they need you!! Snap out of your self pity and do something!!" But, then, there were the times when he broke my heart. His attempt to make amends by bargaining with the Ranyhyn. The Rock Gardens of Mearl, when he tells of the woman in the Leprosarium. The trek thru Foul's winter when calls Lena his Queen. The confrontation in Foul's Creche when he tells Foamfollower to laugh, "joy is in the ears that hear." Caer-Caveral and the Dead of Andelian when he weeps at their feet, "What do you want, I'll do anything". And then, Coercri. His redepemtion of the damned in the wild magic caamora. If nothing else, that alone makes him my hero. That alone transcends all the heartache he caused, that alone rises him to the selflessness of hero stature. "Come! This is the caamora! Come and be healed!"

To me, his bitterness, his despair, his grief all make him a "better" hero. Not all heros are shining knights in armor with hearts of gold. Thomas Covenant sure doesn't fall within that category. But, he does grow. The person we meet at the beginning of Lord Foul's Bane, the one who rapes and seems so self absorbed that you just want to puke when you read his name, is not the same person who sacrifices everything, including his life, for the Land at the end of White Gold Wielder. What a master weaver Donaldson is. He made me LOVE this man!!

I used to talk with my brother about Covenant, my brother understood him better than I did, I think. He identified with him, having AIDS, he felt the same ostraciztion as Covenant did. Being feared, being hated, because of a disease he had no control over. I remember asking my brother, "If you were taken somewhere like the Land, healed of your disease and asked to save it from it's enemy, would you do it?" And he told me that he would feel like Covenant, that it was all a lie, a dream, he wouldn't be able to stand all the glory and hero worship thrust at him, he would probably tell them all to leave him the hell alone. And he also said. Covenant didn't want to do to anything because he didn't want to be responsible for the Land. He didn't trust himself, he loathed himself and loathed everything he did. Also, every time he tried, it failed or rebounded on him. Like the ranyhyn bargain. "I would just want to ride out the dream, like he did."

But, Covenant didn't do that. He did act, he did take responsibility. In all his grief and self-loathing, he fell in love with the Land, its people, its Earthpower, its beauty, its truth. And he did ultimately rise up and become its hero. Illender, Prover of Life, his was the Power that Perserves.

:)
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~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by danlo »

What a glowing endorsement! And I couldn't agree with you more. Don't get me wrong, TC is my hero! When I speak of him as an "anti-hero" what I really mean is that he is presented to world readership as an "anti-hero", that's why his journey is SO important. SRD weaves that journey in a VERY deep inner and subconcious way...
"Keep looking at me! I have to tell you what kind of dream it is. It's dangerous. It can hurt you. The things buried in us are powerful and violent, and they are going to come out. The darkness in us--the destructive side, the side we keep locked up all our lives--is alive here. Everybody has some self-hate inside. Here it's personified--externalized, the way things happen in dreams."
I was going to say something else but I think that quote pretty much says it all...heavy stuff mon! 8O
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Post by [Syl] »

I've said it many times, Covenant is my idol.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
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Post by Worm of Despite »

I don't think the average reader should get so angry at Covenant. I mean, most people that hate his thoughts/actions/mutterings in LFB just refuse to sympathize with or even comprehend the pain he has gone through. Either that, or they probably didn't identify with TC like I did, but oh well.

Yes, Hile Troy had a physical problem, as Covenant did, but Hile didn't experience the breakup of a family or the loss of some "golden boy" reputation among his town/people. Had Covenant had Hile's attitude toward the Land, then the book's primary inner struggle would be canceled out and the story would be much more boring--and a lot more cliche without TC's anti-hero quality.
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Post by danlo »

great new sig!!!!!!!!!!! :D
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Post by Worm of Despite »

The Herbert quote? Thankye! I'm over halfway through with Children of Dune, and deeply enjoying it.
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Post by duchess of malfi »

Furls, I wish your brother was here with us at the Watch. I wish he could come to Elohimfest with us. :cry:
When we say our group peace prayers at Los Alamos I hope that you will speak for him...so that he will know that he is remembered with love... :)
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Re: Thomas Covenant, hero?

Post by Seafoam Understone »

Furls Fire wrote:Thomas Covenant, hero.

Hmmm, I have to say, to me, he was indeed a hero. Oh, there were times that I raved at him, called him heartless, cruel, montrous, etc. Many times I wanted to strangle him, shout in his face "don't you know they need you!! Snap out of your self pity and do something!!" But, then, there were the times when he broke my heart. His attempt to make amends by bargaining with the Ranyhyn. The Rock Gardens of Mearl, when he tells of the woman in the Leprosarium. The trek thru Foul's winter when calls Lena his Queen. The confrontation in Foul's Creche when he tells Foamfollower to laugh, "joy is in the ears that hear." Caer-Caveral and the Dead of Andelian when he weeps at their feet, "What do you want, I'll do anything". And then, Coercri. His redepemtion of the damned in the wild magic caamora. If nothing else, that alone makes him my hero. That alone transcends all the heartache he caused, that alone rises him to the selflessness of hero stature. "Come! This is the caamora! Come and be healed!"

To me, his bitterness, his despair, his grief all make him a "better" hero. Not all heros are shining knights in armor with hearts of gold. Thomas Covenant sure doesn't fall within that category. But, he does grow. The person we meet at the beginning of Lord Foul's Bane, the one who rapes and seems so self absorbed that you just want to puke when you read his name, is not the same person who sacrifices everything, including his life, for the Land at the end of White Gold Wielder. What a master weaver Donaldson is. He made me LOVE this man!!

I used to talk with my brother about Covenant, my brother understood him better than I did, I think. He identified with him, having AIDS, he felt the same ostraciztion as Covenant did. Being feared, being hated, because of a disease he had no control over. I remember asking my brother, "If you were taken somewhere like the Land, healed of your disease and asked to save it from it's enemy, would you do it?" And he told me that he would feel like Covenant, that it was all a lie, a dream, he wouldn't be able to stand all the glory and hero worship thrust at him, he would probably tell them all to leave him the hell alone. And he also said. Covenant didn't want to do to anything because he didn't want to be responsible for the Land. He didn't trust himself, he loathed himself and loathed everything he did. Also, every time he tried, it failed or rebounded on him. Like the ranyhyn bargain. "I would just want to ride out the dream, like he did."

But, Covenant didn't do that. He did act, he did take responsibility. In all his grief and self-loathing, he fell in love with the Land, its people, its Earthpower, its beauty, its truth. And he did ultimately rise up and become its hero. Illender, Prover of Life, his was the Power that Perserves.

:)
I agree with Danlo, wonderful and inspired writing. The things you said about Covenant, I copy/paste (with credit due :wink: ) for anyone who hasn't read TCTC and for those who complain about him mid-way through LFB. True you got some spoilers there but hey they can just quit their bitchin' and get on with the story.

Covenant... definitely anti-hero and probably one of literature's finest.

I accept the gift of your words Furl and in accepting the gift return honor to the giver.

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Post by Tulizar »

Furl's post really does say it all. I loved the fact that TC was pathetic one moment, then glorious the next. It was TC's ping-pong personality that kept me reading both chronicles. Who wants another self-riteous, save- the-world-without-a-single-thought-for-his-own-good, hero? TC is real. He is human. Sure he is absorbed in self-pity, but he also thinks about real things as a normal would person before acting.
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Post by Furls Fire »

Thanks all :) especailly for the kind words about my brother. He had a real insight into Covenant's character. I wish you all could have gotten to know him, he would have loved the Watch and everyone here.

He understood how Covenant must have felt. He too, dealt with the looks of revulsion from people when they found out he had AIDS...Leprosy is much like that. He used to say, "I can understand how being received as loathsome day after day would make someone bitter. I'm not bitter tho, I know that it's only their fear that makes them react to me that way." The difference between my brother and Covenant was that Steve was not abandoned by his family. If anything, it rallied us, like some horn of war blown. It brought us all together for the battle. Covenant on the other hand, lost everyone because of his leprosy. His wife, his son, his friends, his peers. All hated him, wanted him gone from them. I would definately sink into despair if that happened to me.

Anyway...i'm going off here. LOL!!

Again, thanks all! I really posted this because I felt that he was getting a bum rap in the other thread. I was going to post it there, but it was full of spoilers. And I didn't want it all blackened. :)

Duchess and Seafoam, huggles to you both for the kind words about Steve. |G
And I believe in you
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and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by Fist and Faith »

Here's another of my favorite moments of Covenant's. Of course, nothing could ever compare with giving the caamora to the dead in the Grieve. But I absolutely love this one too. After Chant threatens to banish Brinn "to the place of shades, from whence none return" if Brinn refuses to leave Linden alone with him. The Haruchai all attack the Elohim, who capture the Haruchai with ease:
"No." Among the Giants, Covenant stood like imminent fire, facing the Elohim with wild magic poised in every muscle. His passion dominated the knoll. In a low voice, as dangerous as a viper, he articulated, "You can discount me. Thats been done before. But the Haruchai are my friends. You will not harm them."

"That choice is not yours to make!" Chant retorted. But now it was he who sounded petulant and diminished.
I'm probably not the typical TCTC reader, being very much less concerned with Covenant's problems than the Land's. But some posts lately, and especially the first of this thread, have got me thinking more about him than ever before. I'm grateful for that, Furls.
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Post by Furls Fire »

:) :) Fist :) :)

I could quote many instances where he made my heart leap into my throat. I think I attune myself more to him then the other characters...don't get me wrong...I love them all and they have special places in my literary soul...but Covenant, I don't know, maybe it's because of my brother, or maybe it's because darkness and grief in characters touch me in some way that I just can't explain. He amazes me, how he rises up and does what he does.

I read the books because of him. The Land, and all it's wonder in the First Chrons was amazing, and the devastation of it in the Second brought such sadness...but what kept me reading was Covenant. And his journey.

Okay, I've babbled on enough... :) Thanks for your indulgence all :)
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by Landwaster »

Hero for mine. A very different breed .. and of course "its not that simply". He sure didn't like being that dangerous.
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Post by Blue_Spawn »

You can't turn a rapist into a hero.

Sorry...

You just can't do it.
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Post by Worm of Despite »

Sure you can. You did read the books, right? Even rapists have their humanity. And I wouldn't call Covenant a rapist. I say that if it’s a human being then it can bring itself from its lowest moral point to that of a hero.
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Post by Furls Fire »

LOL!! Donaldson can, and he did. You will see that clearer as you move forward in the books. But, if you chose not to move forward with them, that is fine too.

But, if you haven't read them all the way thru, then you really can't say yay or nay to the possibility that he becomes and is a hero.

I'll say this about the rape. It had to happen. So much of the story evolves from it. It is so interwoven with everything that happens to other characters in the books, especially the First Chrons. And Covenant, whew, this one act is the crux of many of his choices throughout the books. I won't say anymore, because I will be bordering on more spoilers.

Anyway, hope you read on :)
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by Landwaster »

Yep definitely there'd be no story without the rape, and next to no character development.

The rape was, I think, a bit of an anchor by which a reader can somewhat measure the other ills performed in this story.
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Post by Blue_Spawn »

The rape scene is out of place. Not only out of style in comparison to the preceeding chapters, but also to the whole "CTC Universe." Whatever Donaldson was trying to achieve (either to pass through writter's block or to avoid a plot hole), the drastic shift says that he was struggling with the idea.

That whole part is out of place...like Donaldson all of the sudden jumped into one of his sci-fi novels. It seems awkward.

By the way, nothing can persuade me into seeing him as a hero if I happened to be a hardass conservative (like one of those aristicrats during the French revolution).
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Post by Furls Fire »

Have you read all the books? Or did you get that far and stop?

I'm sorry, if you haven't read beyond the rape..then how can you know it's "out of place"?

The rape was not to "escape writer's block" and he certainly was NOT struggling with any idea.

The rape had to happen. It is an intergral part of the plot. This one event, sents a whole string of others in motion. Half the Illearth War would not be possible if this rape hadn't happened.

You need to read on...then you will see what we are talking about.
And I believe in you
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I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by Fist and Faith »

OK then. We've read all the books, and love them. You can't get past the rape, and won't be reading the rest. We won't be changing your mind, and you certainly won't be changing ours.

Is there another topic you'd like to discuss? Unfortunately, we can't have much of a conversation with you about TCTC, considering how far you've read. But we've got lots of forums here, some specific, and some general enough to include most anything.
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Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
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