Kevin's Watch

The question is a good one. We've done a survey before, probably in the Tank, and we're pretty much all Caucasian and, IIRC, Asian. Maybe a couple Hindi. And this is obviously a subject that's been taken on by those in the fantasy biz.

Me, I've known a lot of fantasy geeks in my day. And the same is true for RenFaires - there's hardly any black folks (though I have seen more black youths attending lately). Asking why is good, I think.

But yes, generalizations can be troublesome. They can wander into the territory of stereotypes. I believe this was the point Worm was making (I think Dane Cook, or perhaps another similar comedian, did a spin on this... "Asians can fly!").

So, let's err on the side of caution, ok?

danlo wrote:That could be construed as a controversial question, but I assume you're joking.

no, he wasn't joking. he was calling her on such stereotypical thinking. it may just be naievete and not intended as "racial profiling" but it was certainly, as far as this white girl from kentucky, transplanted to the Bay Area is concerned, the type of thinking that perpetuates the AA stereotype remeniscent of eugenic thinking.

danlo wrote:That could be construed as a controversial question, but I assume you're joking.

I wonder what an AA would say about LeGuin's Earthsea books? Any depiction of a charater on any of the covers renders them white, but many people in the Inner Islands are described as brown or dark. I guess we just have to assume that Ged is a white guy with a really good tan. Funny how the Sci-Fi channel's Earthsea "effort" had Ged played by a white actor and Ogion by an AA actor, yet they both came from the same island.

Genly Ai from The Left Hand of Darkness is definitely black. Le Guin seems not to designate color with anything--just what your skin is and that's that, as investigating it only creates strangeness amongst the "races" (as we call them, though there are no races). But she's plenty happy to investigate gender assumptions in that book, as it's something that is worth dissecting.

As far as Lord of the Rings actors, I never thought of that either, and it's been many years since I read the books, but does JRRT ever SAY what anyone's skin color is? I mean, how do we know they aren't all black? Or purple? Or green? The Orcs and Uruk-Hai have dark skin. On the movies, that is.

The main criticism of the movie was that the orcs and such, being dark-skinned, were representative of black people. With the books, it's a bit different. The men of the first age, the Edain, were very fair. They were also very powerful. As time goes on, though, other men are darker, smaller, and weaker. Some people think that represents a rather Aryan viewpoint.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octavia_Butler

I haven't read any of her stuff.

This is the description of the NPR Radio link I posted earlier...

News & Notes , August 13, 2007 · Our look at the African-American literary imagination continues with a trip into the outer limits of genre writing — science fiction, fantasy and horror — and the unique challenges faced by black writers of speculative fiction.

Farai Chideya talks with fantasy writer Tananarive Due, science fiction writer Steven Barnes, and speculative fiction editor Sheree R. Thomas.

The Sheree R. Thomas page has links to other African-american speculative fiction authors, for any interested.

Luci wrote:no, he wasn't joking. he was calling her on such stereotypical thinking

Well, I guess I'm a dunderhead because I gave her the benefit of the doubt (because, based on RS's past posting I didn't think that was her MO or intention)-she was also stereotyping geeks and whites to some degree. Actually, I know of a part AA who loves sports, and plays them, and is a very smart, studious geek. His name is Barack.

I apologize TWATEOTW, it's hard to interperate intent on ciscussion boards, especially when you aren't used to someone *there I've called you a noob, sorry* quick someone call me on that too...

I've read one Octavia Butler novel...it wasn't really sf/f, [although the main character kept getting sucked through time, it seemed more plot-device than genre-defining].
What I wonder, though, is if this has something to do with it: historically (this seems to be slowly changing) most fantasy that sells has had pretty strong roots in Indo-European mythology. I think this would tend to affect the fan-base...I'm pretty sure if I were AA, and I liked the idea of fantasy I'd likely look for stories based on my cultural mythology, not old white people stories. [at least to begin with].

Also, though, I can say that there is an aweful lot of AA writing, past and present, that contains sf/f elements essential to the books. In fact, I argued once in a class that though latino/hispanic authors (like Marquez) and Indian sub-continent authors (like Rushdie) are known for magical realism and related 'styles' AA writers invented it.

oh...I forgot to say as well, although I've never pictured Foul as looking of African descent, I always hear his voice as that...specifically the voice of the actor who I think was in the first "Candyman" movie.

danlo wrote:

Luci wrote:no, he wasn't joking. he was calling her on such stereotypical thinking

Well, I guess I'm a dunderhead because I gave her the benefit of the doubt (because, based on RS's past posting I didn't think that was her MO or intention)-she was also stereotyping geeks and whites to some degree. Actually, I know of a part AA who loves sports, and plays them, and is a very smart, studious geek. His name is Barack.

I apologize TWATEOTW, it's hard to interperate intent on ciscussion boards, especially when you aren't used to someone *there I've called you a noob, sorry* quick someone call me on that too...

No need to apologize, I was waiting for someone to fall for my bait. And it just happened to be you.

Stereotyping can be fun. But does anybody remember the name of a famous sports commentator who got fired for saying that blacks males are natural athletes because their ancestors were slaves and bred for physical labor?

I went to high school with plain ol' white guys who were genius-level smart as well as tall and athletic. I was shocked one day to find out that one of those white jock dudes had looked up his school records and found that he had an iq of 160.

I guess I'm still a n00b after 391 posts and membership for over a year. Is there anything in the forum rules about a n00b status ending date?

No need to apologize, I was waiting for someone to fall for my bait.

No baiting, please. Falls under the 'don't wind people up' part of the Rules and Guidelines, which, coincidentally, is right below the part about racial comments.

I don't think that was Rocksister's intention, either, so let's not harsh over that. Growing up in rural NV, I really didn't know any black people until I joined the Navy. My inexperience caused some... difficulties (no, it's not OK to quote a black guy who uses the N-word).

Syl wrote:

No need to apologize, I was waiting for someone to fall for my bait.

No baiting, please. Falls under the 'don't wind people up' part of the Rules and Guidelines, which, coincidentally, is right below the part about racial comments.

I don't think that was Rocksister's intention, either, so let's not harsh over that. Growing up in rural NV, I really didn't know any black people until I joined the Navy. My inexperience caused some... difficulties (no, it's not OK to quote a black guy who uses the N-word).

It appears that you didn't read my entire post. I'm saying that the commentator who got fired had no bad intentions either.

Jimmy the Greek, but he was more of an oddsmaker and Vegas wiseguy than a real sportscaster...

You've been here for over a year, did you have another name? I don't think you baited me, just made me aware of your presence (which is scary in itself ).

danlo wrote:Jimmy the Greek, but he was a Vegas wiseguy anyway...

You've been here for over a year? I don't think you baited me, just made me aware of your presence. Did you have another name b4?

No. Here's some of my stats:
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Total posts: 400

I've been on the Watch way too long...

Syl wrote:The question is a good one. We've done a survey before, probably in the Tank, and we're pretty much all Caucasian and, IIRC, Asian.

Pretty much all, but not quite.

I understood your post, Worm. The second para wasn't addressed to you.

And compared to danlo, I'm still a noob.

And VS - sui generis.

Upon re-reading your second paragraph, I would say that it wasn't Jimmy the Greek's intention either. In this day and age, simply stating the facts about certain races can get you fired. I don't know what you call it, but I call it censorship.

I don't want to ever leave the land of N00b...

You know, in my head I always assumed the Haruchai were dark-skinned people.. Obviously not African-American, or like any group of dark-skinned people of any continent on this world.. But to me it suited their physical prowess and natural ability to thrive in the wilderness of their natural environment.

In Australia we have few African-Americans, though we have many people who have moved to our country from many of the war-torn countries of Africa, many as refugees. And, of course we have 'indigenous' Australians (i used the ' marks to signify that whilst they may have inhabited this country for over 40,000 years, they are by no means indigenous, as the entire human race originated in Africa.. ironically enough.)

And mythology and spirituality is deeply important to them, but their stories and mythologies are all oral.. And when you're part of a community who have lived for thousands of years with the oral retelling of stories it's hardly likely that you're going to think 'I'm going down the local library and see what's new in books.'

There's a lot of caucasians too for whom the library isn't a location that speaks to their particular culture. But I think you'll find that people from a culture which is historically dependent of oral histories and mythologies are less likely to be 'into' reading than people who are from cultures where books (religious texts, political texts etc. have been of daily importance, even just symbolically, for thousands of years.

Forgot to ask - what about the Fantasy fans from the America Indian demographic?