Kevin's Watch

Also, with Time Travel, how is Linden's becoming the first Unfettered changing history?

Because she was the first. The theomach created the whole idea of the unfettered to cover up linden's appearance. If she hadn't been there, there would be no unfettered.

Nothing in the timeline changed as a result

You mean nothing in the previous TC books changed, and by defining important history (history that can't be changed without destroying the arch) as books previously written by SRD, SRD interjects himself into the storyline. Time travel just gives the reader cause to disbelieve the author and the storyline.

[mod edit - the following is spoiler material for the new Star Trek movie.]

Spoiler

It's like the new star trek movie- Romulus is destroyed, but one mining ship is sent back in time with the red matter that will prevent romulus' destruction. So, problem solved, right? Just fly to romulus, give them the red matter and then it'll never be destroyed. But instead, they romulans decide to destroy every planet in the federation as retaliation (they destroy vulcan, but they get swallowed into a black hole created by kirk/spock before they can destroy any other planets). It doesn't make fucking sense. . .by the way, If I just spoiled star Trek for you, then you ought to thank me for saving you ten bucks on that crappy movie.

what would you consider to be good reading?

I think this new series by SRD is good fantasy, aside from the time travel nonsense. Other books I'd say were good are Celine's first two novels (journey to the end of the night, death on the installment plan).Beckett's trilogy minus 'the unreadable' . I liked Isaac Asimov's foundation trilogy, but haven't read it since I was a teen. I thought Stephen King's Dark tower series started with a good idea and degraded into utter and complete fucking crap (I actually liked the ending though) because stephen king's philosophy of writing makes him incapable of ever successfully writing an epic fantasy. Grimm's fairy tales is good reading because people never die, they die miserably. Lewis Carrol's 'through the looking glass' is fascinating because he was trying to lure a child into the sack with that one. As far as comic books, Neil Gaiman's sandman (I get a gaiman vibe from some of the plot elements in the new series. . .the insequent especially) Garth Ennis' 'preacher' A lot of shit by Alan Moore (swamp thing, league of ex gentlemen, etc) Frank millers 'sin city' Mike Allred's 'Madman', 'Martin, Reign of Terror (don't know who wrote it, just a three issue mini-series, but it rocked), 'Astro City', etc. Political/philosophical would be Mein Kampf, Capital, Chomsky's Hegemony or survival- too many more to mention. I like anything about WW2 (the arms of krupp was good) I would mention a few choices of arrogant literary pricks (Ulysses, etc), but I won't embarrass myself in that fashion. Knut Hamson's 'hunger' was good.

Where's that fucking swearing filter when you need it? Oh right. I thought we agreed to manage our language for the most part. The occassional fuck is fine but after a while it gets a bit tiresome.

I'm against rampant swearing, but I'd rather see the cuss words as is than be exposed to an asterisk blizzard.

insect wrote:Also, with Time Travel, how is Linden's becoming the first Unfettered changing history?

Because she was the first. The theomach created the whole idea of the unfettered to cover up linden's appearance. If she hadn't been there, there would be no unfettered.

Nothing in the timeline changed as a result

You mean nothing in the previous TC books changed, and by defining important history (history that can't be changed without destroying the arch) as books previously written by SRD, SRD interjects himself into the storyline. Time travel just gives the reader cause to disbelieve the author and the storyline.

Now we're getting somewhere, there are reasons with the opinion.
In general, I find time travel as annoying as you do. In this particular case, I was worried (well, panicked maybe) at first...not so much now. The reason is that, as he often does, SRD has taken the concept and twisted it. The very existence of the Falls, and the ability to change history isn't simply a threat to events/results/people: it's a violation of the rules of the universe. It is evil in and of itself. Significant alteration of history won't just mean something minor, like no Ritual of Desecration , it will destroy the universe in its entirety, and free LF. The only things you can change in history are things that have little importance in history. The unfettered and the Melenkurion collapse didn't ruin things because they already had a place in history. Also, as I noted in another post: The most important difference is that travel isn't a neutral tool to tinker with the world: it is an attack by LF on the very foundations of the world. Time is pretty much the only unbroken law left, and the stuff his prison in built from.

Thanks for the answers, insect,

Now, here is where we differ on concept of time travel, if I travel back in time, and if what I do does not change the events in the course of history, I have not changed time, especially if time, instead of a sequential phenomana, exists as a whole, or in a circular fashion (I hope this isn't the case, but I can't remember a better example ). In other words, in the words of Professor Fansworth, "If history doesn't care that Fry is his own grandfather..."

As far as ruining Star Trek, you're just lucky that it's all ready been ruined for me Just be a little bit more considerate in the future, you may not have wanted to know ahead of time that at the end of the Second Foundation:

Spoiler

It turns out that the second foundation is located on the previous seat of the Galactic Empire

before you had read it. It may appear to be trash to you, but that doesn't mean that others will not view it in that manner. Using spoiler tags allows you to save people (like me ) money, but allows other people who want to experiance things themselves an oppurtunity to do so.

Now, here is where we differ on concept of time travel, if I travel back in time, and if what I do does not change the events in the course of history, I have not changed time

You are considering "history" only that which has been deemed consequential by people afterward. If you went back in time and stepped on an ant, you've have just changed the course of past events. A more relevent example would be this- Since the masters hide history from the people and don't let them travel, you can do almost anything with time travel from the time of the masters onward because no one will know about it. since it's already been established that only written or known history will break the arch of time (since linden healed hundreds of people and therefore would have caused tens to hundreds of thousands of people to be born of those people during the course of history, and yet that was of no effect). Of course, when linden (who some will maintain is a complete whore. I will not comment on that) retrieved the staff of law, she was trying to be careful not to change history, but that's only because SRD introduced the concept of time travel and thereby fucked himself, so that'll be only one of the hopelessly contradictory episodes in the series.

As far as ruining Star Trek, you're just lucky that it's all ready been ruined for me Big Grin Just be a little bit more considerate in the future

I was being considerate. People can still go to the theater and pay for a ticket if they choose, but they will be no less disappointed if they just turn around and throw their ticket in the trash can than if they sit through that turd of a movie. This is just another example of me being persecuted because I'm a kind and caring person.

insect wrote:

As far as ruining Star Trek, you're just lucky that it's all ready been ruined for me Big Grin Just be a little bit more considerate in the future

I was being considerate. People can still go to the theater and pay for a ticket if they choose, but they will be no less disappointed if they just turn around and throw their ticket in the trash can than if they sit through that turd of a movie. This is just another example of me being persecuted because I'm a kind and caring person.

Right. You are purposefully being a jerk. Welcome to the Watch.

[s]purposfully[/s]

deliberately, purposely. consciously, etc.

Hmm. Strikethrough tags don't work. These forums are suffering from a dearth of useful tags, while simultaneously harboring an abundance of useless smilies.

Insect, you make a good point about “author-necessity” vs “character-necessity,” when you speak about Donaldson needing a narrative mechanism to limit TC’s “unlimited” power. Sure, he’s crafting a story and has certain things he needs to do in order to keep it moving along—such as not giving TC too much power too soon. This isn’t a “deus ex machina.” It’s a basic necessity of story telling. Whether it’s Superman or Jedi, they have to have a limit on their power or you have no conflict. No conflict, no story. Yet, you make it sound like it’s a fault of Donaldson, rather than just a feature of story-telling. “Achilles heel” has been a common element of epic hero myths for a long, long time.

But you’re wrong in another way: TC’s limits aren’t like kryptonite. It’s not arbitrary. It doesn’t arise solely from “author-necessity.” It is deeply connected to TC’s character. As you can see for yourself in the Gradual Interview (where Donaldson will answer your questions himself, if you are bold enough to try), the white gold is a symbol for TC’s passions. Wild magic is “wild” because passions can be either creative or destructive. TC’s central conflict is his own alienation from his passions, because (as a leper) he thinks hope is a destructive illusion. He has sealed off this aspect of himself in order to protect himself from feeling pain or misleading hope. And by doing so, he has cut himself off from his own humanity.

This isn’t a mere contrivance; it’s a common theme in the Chronicle—indeed it’s the whole point. It’s the same theme that is echoed in the Oath of Peace, where people have cut themselves off from their creative (and destructive) potential by repressing their emotions. It’s also echoed in the Bloodguard’s Oath, where they have cut themselves off from their wives (their passion, their love) in order to conform to an inhuman service. It is the paradoxical struggle between passion and control. Too much control, and you’re a robot (like the haruchai). But too much passion can lead to Rituals of Desecration. The trick, as Mhoram found (and as TC is finding) is to find the eye of the paradox between control and passion.

So, TC’s journey in the First Chronicles was to let himself feel again, to engage his circumstances as if they mattered, to Be True (i.e. not a robot). Thus, accessing his power/ passion/wild magic was the chief problem. In the Second Chronicles, it’s just the opposite: Lord Foul has given him the means to access virtually unlimited power (hoping that TC will break the Arch), so that TC’s chief problem is controlling those passions, rather than accessing them. I expect the Last Chronicles to finally find the balance between these two extremes.

The theomach created the whole idea of the unfettered to cover up linden's appearance. If she hadn't been there, there would be no unfettered.

That's pure speculation on your part. You don't know that the Unfettered wouldn't exist if Linden hadn't been there. Perhaps the Theomach originally provided the idea of the unfettered himself, by doing exactly what Linden did: heal Berek’s men. All Theo would have to do is show Berek what hurtloam is, and what it can do. Then you’d have exactly the same scenario play out, except minus one character.

You don’t like time travel. I get it. But (again) it’s not a gimmick. It has been set up for over 20 years. Donaldson purposely wrote the Second Chronicles knowing that this is the direction he was going. And since Foul is attacking the Arch of Time, it is entirely appropiate. Just because other writers (Star Trek, Back to the Future, etc) have used this in a sloppy manner doesn’t mean that Donaldson has. You haven’t proven a single point about Donaldson by spoiling Star Trek for everyone.

I’m not completely closed-minded to the idea that Donaldson manipulates the story for his own reasons. I’ve made this point myself in the Runes forum about Linden needing the Staff. But you are entirely incorrect in this instance. Covenant needs control over the white gold more than Donaldson needs it.

One final point. I can be an asshole. I’m not one to criticize people for entering a site with guns blazing. I did much the same when I first came here. But reading your posts makes me regret the tone I have used in the past, when I’ve been too arrogant or cocky. So, just some friendly advice: you might actually find that you like some of the people here, and end up regretting being so harsh. Just because we like Donaldson doesn’t mean we’re ass-kissers. If a dozen people are telling you that you don’t “get it,” maybe the problem is with you, not us. Many of us have spent years discussing these points about the Chronicles which you obviously have misunderstood. Many of us have informed our opinions through discussions with the author himself, either through the Gradual Interview or in person (many here have met Donaldson numerous times—some even know him personally). Until you put in the time and effort to try to understand these novels, you're just making yourself look closed-minded. Honestly, you seemed like a troll until this second page where you started (poorly) backing up your rants. So, as fun as it might be to join a site and stir up some shit with anonymous fans, if you plan on sticking around, it's going to get old real fast.

insect wrote:Also, with Time Travel, how is Linden's becoming the first Unfettered changing history?

Because she was the first. The theomach created the whole idea of the unfettered to cover up linden's appearance. If she hadn't been there, there would be no unfettered.

As has already been stated, there was nothing in the previous two Chronicles that said who the first Unfettered One was.

insect wrote:Nothing in the timeline changed as a result

You mean nothing in the previous TC books changed, and by defining important history (history that can't be changed without destroying the arch) as books previously written by SRD, SRD interjects himself into the storyline. Time travel just gives the reader cause to disbelieve the author and the storyline.

Linden WAS the first Unfettered One. Since the Arch would crumble if she changed Time, the fact that she hasn't brought it down (so far) means she hasn't changed Time and MUST be the first UO.

insect wrote:what would you consider to be good reading?

Lewis Carrol's 'through the looking glass' is fascinating because he was trying to lure a child into the sack with that one.

It has been shown that this is false. He was doing no such thing. I'll link you to the biography that disproves this theory as soon as I can locate it again. I bought the book from Amazon a few years ago for my mother who is a direct descendant of Charles Dodgson.

WAH! Revenant spoilers! *sob*

In response to malik. I appreciate the time you took to provide a reasoned response. [mod edit - deleted]

Sure, he’s crafting a story and has certain things he needs to do in order to keep it moving along—such as not giving TC too much power too soon. This isn’t a “deus ex machina.” It’s a basic necessity of story telling.

The only difference between TC and a greek tragedy is that instead of a god intervening once problems become insurmountable, god had TC intervene. Of course the struggle is the story, in this case as in any other work of fiction, but no matter what happens, what kind of struggle ensues, the reader knows that white gold will intervene in the end and everything will turn out peachy, just like a greek tragedy.

Whether it’s Superman or Jedi, they have to have a limit on their power or you have no conflict. No conflict, no story.

If you want to point out examples of good story telling, then why did you mention superman? Come on man, superman's a poorly crafted propaganda tool to indoctrinate children. Also, the jedi weren't enabled with all powerful instruments. They were no more powerful than the sith, so that example isn't applicable.

TC’s limits aren’t like kryptonite. It’s not arbitrary. It doesn’t arise solely from “author-necessity.”

Not until the second series. At that point, they were nothing if not arbitrary. How many times was covenant unconscious or catatonic? Then at the end, when lack of consciousness was becoming stale, he made yet another vow akin to his vow never to kill- his vow never to use power.

Aside from that, a point I never even mentioned was how many times SRD used the stephen king-esque strategy of his characters lapsing into deep introspection every time immediate action was required of them (ostensibly to create suspense, but which really just creates annoyance). That is a thoroughly annoying tool of pulp fiction that's on par with people breaking out into song in musicals. People, in reality, don't lapse into deep speculative thought when some immediate action is required of them. I don't care how much that trick is utilized in contemporary pop fiction, it's lame and completely unrealistic.

TC’s central conflict is his own alienation from his passions, because (as a leper) he thinks hope is a destructive illusion. He has sealed off this aspect of himself in order to protect himself from feeling pain or misleading hope. And by doing so, he has cut himself off from his own humanity.

Yes, I understood that at 12 when I first read the series.

That's pure speculation on your part. You don't know that the Unfettered wouldn't exist if Linden hadn't been there.

Fair enough. However, she caused hundreds of people to live that would have died. Those hundreds of people would have had tens to hundreds of thousands or maybe even millions of descendants in the course of 7,000 years, so pretending that she could have caused changes of that degree without destroying the arch of time suggests a lee-way to do just about anything if SRD can manage to either avoid mentioning the repercussions or attach an implausible explanation to them.

Perhaps the Theomach originally provided the idea of the unfettered himself, by doing exactly what Linden did: heal Berek’s men.

Or perhaps all those people that were healed were killed in battle shortly afterward. Or perhaps they all established a town in some other part of the world and passed out of this history. Or perhaps whatever or whatever. I could go on forever bringing up objections, and you could spend just as much time countering them. The point is that once time travel is introduced, it becomes much more difficult, if not impossible, for the reader to suspend disbelief.

You haven’t proven a single point about Donaldson by spoiling Star Trek for everyone.

If I could "spoil" a star trek movie for you, you've got deeper issues to worry about than SRD's books. If you don't go into a star trek movie with the assumption that it'll suck, you need therapy.

I’m not completely closed-minded to the idea that Donaldson manipulates the story for his own reasons.

Good, because every author does.

One final point. I can be an asshole.

[mod edit - deleted]

you might actually find that you like some of the people here

Who says I don't? Just because I like to argue doesn't necessarily mean I dislike anyone here. And I've already said that I like the new series and think it shows a remarkable maturity in the writer.

many here have met Donaldson numerous times—some even know him personally

[mod edit - deleted]

Until you put in the time and effort to try to understand these novels, you're just making yourself look closed-minded

If I ever do come to "understand" these novels, then I'll have to figure out more than what you've said, because you've said nothing that I didn't already know by 13. You see covenant's inner turmoil as the point of the story (as SRD intended you to) and I view it as a poorly created psychology in order to prohibit the use of white gold. Covenant's complaints and reasoning throughout the first two series (as well an linden's) is just meaningless psycho babble. You think I don't understand it when in reality- I'm just not buying it.

It has been shown that this is false. . . I'll link you to the biography that disproves this theory as soon as I can locate it again.

I'll take your word for it. TTLG is a good book whether LC was moe-lestering kids or not.

Knock it off with the personal and vulgar comments, please.

Also, I'm moving this thread to Fatal Revenant forum, and adding 'FR spoilers' to the title.

Hmmmm,
Don't really know where to begin... so much has been said already, just stick with my 2 cents.
I think the overall critisism of time travel as a cop out device in every case is pretty unfair, especially considering THE ARCH OF TIME is at stake. Seems pretty logical, and is being used in a very unique way. You can hate the sound of a standing bass, but the innovative use of a standing bass makes it's mundane historical uses void in regards to the piece.
I think the Theomach made Linden the first Unfettered for a reason. Without his naming, the tradition would never have existed. What the reason is, I'm not sure, but it seems too deliberate for happenstance. Does it change history... no. It completes it. The worm eats on...
And as for TC's "poorly written, 2 dimensional" psychology, I just can't agree. Of course he is the way he is, due to his leprosy, and alot of 13 year olds can handle that... but what else is to be expected? I don't see TC's situation as poorly written, it is exactly what it had to be. Plently of other characters along the way played both sides of every fence, and a story about a guy with endless bullets on a rampage isn't quite as intriguing... I guess I don't understand Insects complaint.
And finally, Insect, I too am new to the Watch, and have read many old threads in order to be abreast. You are already unique. And suggesting Frank Miller and Louis Carroll? A bit like suggesting people should check out the Beatles.

Life as a douchebag hasn't been easy, that I'll admit. How could I know anything wrapped in any level of obscurity? Neil Who-man? Isaac Whatsimov? Adolph Hitman? Never heard of 'em! Guess I'm more akin to the "retards" of the land than I am the Endless.
And all dedicated readers remember how the people of the land just adored TC, what with all the rape and sunny attitude. It's a good thing they liked him... Trell practically gave the land a permanent hug!
He is a dickhead. Dickead Unclean. That's the point. But, as Monty Burns once stated... "Oh well, that's leprosy for you."
Would the series have been better with a guns blazing TC? One with a pocket full of Werther's and some country advice?
And plenty of "kids out of college" making their first release bring the raw materials for greatness to the table without full realization, see pop music history.
Seems like a lot of effort driving home the point that we as Watchers are dedicated to something inferior. If it weren't for Eastern Michigans 22 percent unemployment rate, I wouldn't have time to celebrate what I love here at the Watch... it just seems amazing that someone has time to tear it down.
Glad you are enjoying the 3rd Chrons, you make great points! And I think you're level of critisism can actually help me, I need a go to guy for opinions on everything. Please include in next post best national barbecue chain, how to keep a table at Denny's without buying anything, and a list of books, besides those aformentioned, that can give my life direction... I have been to the mountain, and it is insect I have seen.

Hi, insext!

What's a DSM EYE VEE?

Inquiring minds want to know.