hierachy wrote:You have to remember that HT's strategical abilities could only be as good as Donaldsons. Acyualy, I amend that last sentance; his was worse than Donaldsons, because Donaldson always intended for HT's plans to fail.
I think your first sentence is a central point. Being something of an armchair strategist, one of my pet peeves with much of epic fantasy is the generally daft strategies that are pursued. Of course, this isn't because the generals and strategists in the fantasy worlds are incompetent bunglers (usually), but because the authors don't have much of a clue about warfare.
When I read TIW, I just assumed that the holes in Troy's strategy were mostly due to SRD's own limited grasp on the subject. He's never struck me as a writer particularly interested in the nature and techniques of warfare (in fact, the great war set-pieces in the Chronicles are IIRC comparatively perfunctory - they're certainly not the main focus of interest).
So it might be a little unfair to lay all the blame for this on poor old Troy.
but at the same time, as hierachy says, Hile Troy was destined to fail...
he could change his fate no more than elena, or foamfollower or any of the many others.
"Damn!!! Wildwood was unbelievably cool!!!!!" - Fist&Faith
"Yeah Forestal is the one to be bowed to!! All hail Forestal of the pantaloon intelligencia!" - Skyweir
I'm not on the Watch often, but I always return eventually.
well obviously mhoram didn't think it was suicide...
if one, why not more?
and if your a "military genius" you would no doubt have a backup plan... this was to run to doriendor corishev... but HT would surely have thought "where on earth am i going to run after that?"
the only logical choice was Garotting Deep...
"Damn!!! Wildwood was unbelievably cool!!!!!" - Fist&Faith
"Yeah Forestal is the one to be bowed to!! All hail Forestal of the pantaloon intelligencia!" - Skyweir
I'm not on the Watch often, but I always return eventually.
Hile Troy decides to fight Fleshharrower's army, ANYWHERE else, he eventually loses because his army is less than 1/20th the size of Fleshharrower's. In the end, the Warmark is completely destroyed and Lord Foul's army is still thousands strong.
Scenario 2
Hile Troy decides to run from Fleshharrower into Garroting Deep. If Lord Mhoram fails in bargaining with the Forestal, we get the same outcome as Scenario 1. If Lord Mhoram succeeds (which he did) Lord Foul's army is obliterated and the Warmark still have 3 or 4 thousand left in the end.
I personally prefer scenario 2
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Hile Troy is my favourite character. He has human faults and strengths is believable and advances the plot strongly.
He was also a good warmark, just not as good as he should have been.
Before I progress further I will state that Hile Troy fulfilled his part of the plot. Donaldson wanted a military genius to lead the Warward to accentuate the fact that the Land couldn't be defended on its own strength but only by the white gold. Thus all Hile Troy's schemes would fail, as would High Lord Elena's and the Land would have to desperarely hope in the Unbeliever for its salvation.
Donaldson highlights this in the book beautifully by painting Troy not as a great general, but as a great theorist to show that by mathematical equation, if not by human will there was no strength capable of resisting Lord Foul.
Now to the character.
Hile Troy was a good Warmark because he was able to motivate his army so that they followed him and were willing to lay down their lives for his plan. This was the true role of a commander. His plan was sound well researched and flexible, and while Hile Troy himself was distressed at necessary changes to his plan he did adapt swiftly. Furthermore Hile Troy was written up to be a strategic genius, and comes accross believably as such.
However he did make several critical errors, but they are not the errors listed in post above. Our replies to Troys tactics are based on 20/20 hindsight, this is not fair, even Alexander and Rommel made mistakes. Troy was human too, Troy however like the great commanders adapted quickly, faster than his enemies did in order to salvage a plausible plan.
Troy promised Hiltmark Quaan that if he gave him eight days he would not squander the opportunity, and he did not. Troy had the balls and brains to be a master strategist. I would follow him.
BUT.....
Troy's strength was his tactical planning. However he had the tactics of a theorist (or to be unfair a chess player) not a true strategist. Troy's failing were not his battlefield ability or his choice of where to do battle. His plan was sound. He had no idea when Foul would strike and so could not keep his army in the field his only mistake in his tactical planning was not to provide a more adequate watch on Fouls Creche and not to provide a mobile patrol defence at the Landsdrop to hold back Fouls army for an extra day or two allowing a more confortable march. These ommissions were forgivable. His strategic mistakes were not.
He had already failed the land before he left Revelstone. He failed because he had not learned any of the lessons and modern military theorist would know except one, communications. Even with regards to communications Troy's adaptions to modern combat were limited, he should have given the Loresraat a better brief as to the communications 'technology' his army required.
Troy's unforgivable mistakes were:
1. Failure of logistic planning. Setting up supply bases at a moments notice is not enough, and he should not have diverted Bloodguard to logistical tasks had be adequately prepared. In the years, or even months prior to the invasion supplies of hurtloam and other materials should have been stockpiled, every soldier should have had access to the stuff, with more in central supply.
Troy also refused to learn modern military lessons regarding proving preserved food supplies or establishing a quatermaster's stores.
2. Failure to technologically adapt. Every military theorist would have been versed in military history. Troy would be no exception. Before students learn of Rommel, Guderian and Khukov they learn about Hannibal, Alexander and Genghis Khan. The Warmark that left Revelstone on its fateful expedition was equipped with swords, bows, breastplates and headbands. What was Troy thinking!!! He came from Earth, even if he didnt know how to make gunpowder (not unlikely) he would have been aware of the value of chainmail, halberds and pike. While magically adept both armies were very primitive in their weaponry. A man from Earth should have poured resources into upgrading the Warmark. Heavy odds will not be a problem if you have platemail armoured halberdiers to face cavewights with. Even basic chain would be enough.
As for the cavalry he could have trained knights, or cataphracts if he prefered from the Romanesque cavalry available. Beyond a few units of heavy cavalry he could have requested other horsemen train as horse archers - they had both of these skills in seperation. Horse Eowards trained to fight with the Parthian shot would have decimated kresh with little loss to themselves.
Proper application of mediaval technology would have multiplied the value of the Warward and made even 20:1 odds acceptable.
Seperate to this is the possibility of upgrading the Bloodguard. I mention this seperately as the Bloodguard are superlatively trained as martial artists and arming them without retaining them over a period of decades might only serve to weaken them. However exception could be made for parrying vambraces, chain mail mailshirts (you can move very easily in chainmail) and they could be asked to give punch dagger 'a go'. An attempt should have been made to equip Bloodguard for war rather than just as 'naked' special forces.
3. Failure to apply the thinking of Total War. Modern concepts such as evacuation and conscription should have been planned even if not immediately implemented.
What do you arm conscripts with? Thats easy, you give them bill halberds which require very little training, and or crossbows if you know how to make them.
Evacuation should have been planned, if not for the populace then for the Loresraat. Secret strongolds built for concealment not war containing small by balanced populations and the secrets of the two wards, wood and stone law within to ensure that they are preserved. Troy would not have been ignorant of nuclear survival and should have drawn this analogy.
Seperate to this issue (I can't blame Hile Troy for this) is the failure to attempt to account for the principle of Total War with the other traditional faqctions of the Land. An attempt, if only that, should have been made to recruit the Ranyhyn. Yes you are free but in Total War noone is free, 'will you agree to come to the call of the land in a time of Total war, not to serve any specific rider to to bear anyone at the time of the call (i.e. the army)'. Such a call could only be made at a time of Total War, and only by specific persons - probably the High Lord.
Hile Troy would have understood Total War, its a basic principle behind modern military theory. He would have understood that it was possible to suspend the normal order at times of mutual need. It might have been hard to the Land to accept conscription of people, Giants or Ranyhyn but such concepts could have been adapted to the Land. In the Land service is given willingly however there simply was no procedure for a massed rally of the Ranyhyn, Giants and peoples to a war footing. If the logistic apparatus had been prepared and a call for reinforcements made it would have been answered by many men (I can't speak for Ranyhyn) such self sacrifice is the way of the land, mandatory conscription would be unnecessary, the moral pressure of land service would bring reinforcements who would be volunteers by our standards.
Hile Troy failed to mobilise, innovate (sufficiently) and prepare adequate logistical support. He was a battlefield theorist of high calibre he was not adequate for the preparatory 'staff' work that preceeded battle.
Last edited by Warmark Troy on Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
He was also a good warmark, just not as good as he should have been.
Not as good as me though.
But if you're all about the destination, then take a fucking flight.
We're going nowhere slowly, but we're seeing all the sights.
And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
'Warmark Troy' I agree with all that you say there except for the bit about conscritpion. I do not believe the lords would have even attempted conscription even if they knew what it was, it would seem exactly like what lord foul did to his entire army. I think it would go too far against all their morals and beliefs....
Just a thought, all in all I don't think the people of the Land were really warriors in any way. Too "nice" (for lack of a better word)
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Warmark Troy makes some very good commentary. I think that Lord Louf makes the mistake of thinking Foul is uninformed. Troy wants Foul to think that they will go fight at Landsdrop. If you have the whole warward in the center plains then it will be quite obvious to Foul's raver scouts that the fight isn't meant for Landsdrop at all. It would be like an arrow pointing to the funnel trap Troy has carefully planned out. So he can't start moving anyone until Foul makes the first move (as in Chess). Foul has to commit himself. Besides, Foul brought Covenant to Kevin's Watch in an instant. He has powers that are hardly mentioned. Troy was smart to wait.
Good post Warmark Troy. Because I'm lazy, all I'll do is point you to the "Defend The Land" thread, a little lower down the page, where I made a long post that addresses some of your points, such as the "technological adaptation".
Pollinator misunderstands me, but that is understandable. What I proposed is subtle. The 'conscription' I advocate is seperate to conscription as we see it, which is mandatory.
Hile Troy could use the philosophy of the Land to accept that compulsory service by law is not acceptable, but moral compulsion would be a good equivalent.
So instead of a state of "serve if you feel the will to help", you get we "need you, we wont force you but we will all suffer if you do not answer the call to arms". This is to all intents and purposes conscription for any who value their oaths to the Land.
If even the masters of Sword and Staff at the Loresraat can freely choose not to serve (via the Rites of Unfettering), it would be very difficult to deny that choice to anyone else. I suspect the 'moral compulsion' would seem hypocritical, and so be likely to fail.
Not to rehash my own arguments upon the subject, but I fully agree with the posters who point out that SRD knows very little about strategy and tactics, and it shows. I don't think the problem is solvable within the parameters he set. Hile Troy was set up to fail by the author himself. An author with more military knowledge could have made Troy a genuine tragic hero, which is more or less what SRD intended. Instead he made him look . . . well . . . stupid.
I certainly agree that Troy was set up to fail, but at least he was set up in a situation where it was believable that he failed. It wasn't simply a matter of him not being able to find an existing solution, (which would have made him look stupid), but rather that there was no possible solution within those parameters.
That, as far as I'm concerned, is far better than a situation in which he could have prevailed, if only he'd noticed X. There was certainly no mistake on Donaldson's part that left an avenue of escape. He made sure that there was no other option in the scenario.
True, but the options Troy did take were pretty far-fetched. And Fleshharrower was downright foolish. As soon as Troy passed through Doom's Retreat, all Fleshharrower had to do was leave ten or fifteen thousand of his army to keep them from coming back again, and turn the rest loose to pillage and burn the Land to his heart's content. Revelstone would not have lasted long with the Warward trapped outside of the Land.
The whole thing would have been more convincing if SRD were a bit of a tactician himself, and TIW would have been so much the better for it. Not a big deal, but it always irks me slightly when I reread that book.
Doesn't really bother me, to be honest, but for what its worth, I agree about FleshHarrower, and that Troys options were a bit far-fetched.
Of course, I could argue the Giant-Ravers case by saying that he wanted a total annihalation of the Warward, and Donaldsons by saying that it was the only way in which total destruction of the Giants forces could be achieved, but in essence, I agree with you.
Still, as I said, it's not something that bothers me when I read the book. It could have been engineered differently, but for me, it doesn't detract much. As I said, at least its believeable.
It was pretty obvious after Flesharrower had beat back Quaan's army at the pass that it wasn't enough for him to simply "avoid" the Warward, he wanted their destruction. He could have simply went straight to Revelstone from the pass instead of following Quaan South, but that wasn't enough for him. That is why he wouldn't have just blocked the Warward from coming back through Doom's retreat, he had wanted to destroy them right from the outset. The first time I read it I had the same thoughts about him just moving North after the Warward had gone through Doom's Retreat, but after I thought about it it went totally against Flesharrower's "tactics" (if you can even call them that) that he had imposed right from the start.
Anyway, I am no war tactician and if I was Warmark the Warward probably would have ended up getting lost and falling in Foul's Creche or something!
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Don't forget the taunting that Flesharrower received. He was mad. He was furious. He was raving. At that point, all he wanted was to destroy the fools in front of him. The question is, why didn't Foul stop him?
