Kevin's Watch

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Two points I wanted to add:

First - I believe the contradiction in Cable Seadreamer's Earthsight vision is explained by him not having one vision but two different ones.

<snip>
This I think is the real shadow they suffer from. That quote strengthen it. The outside-world which is a "shadow cast by Elemesnedene" is something that frightens them because it threatens their immortal existence. Over time this stance became more and more entrenched so that while at first they were kind enough to at time be nice and listen to tales and give boons to visitors like the giants now they rebuff even those minimal contacts as too dangerous. The more unpleasant they are to outsiders the less chance there is that outsiders will manage to touch them.

I can't seem to locate your second point. I hope I didn't snip it.

The history you are referring to has been shown to endanger the lives of individual Elohim. But this "shadow" is a threat to the entire race, something as significant as the Worm which was at rest or slumbering. Even LF, a thousand millennia ago, failed to have an effect on the Worm. Berek did not affect it. The only dangerous influence has been shown to be visitors from outside Time.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Two points I wanted to add:

First - I believe the contradiction in Cable Seadreamer's Earthsight vision is explained by him not having one vision but two different ones.

<snip>
This I think is the real shadow they suffer from. That quote strengthen it. The outside-world which is a "shadow cast by Elemesnedene" is something that frightens them because it threatens their immortal existence. Over time this stance became more and more entrenched so that while at first they were kind enough to at time be nice and listen to tales and give boons to visitors like the giants now they rebuff even those minimal contacts as too dangerous. The more unpleasant they are to outsiders the less chance there is that outsiders will manage to touch them.

I can't seem to locate your second point. I hope I didn't snip it.

Surely the history you are referring to has been shown to endanger the lives of individual Elohim. But this "shadow" is a threat to the entire race, something as significant as the Worm which was at rest or slumbering. Even LF, a thousand millennia ago, failed to have an effect on the Worm. Berek did not affect it. The only dangerous influence has been shown to be visitors from outside Time.

The second point starts from the quote and is about the shadow on the Elohim. It's an internal type of problem. If the Elohim care about what happens in the mortal world they might become vulnerable and eventually die or dissipate within their tasks. You say this is an individual threat and not a racial one but for a race that is eternal and presumably doesn't procreate this poses an existential threat. Yesterday it was the One Forest Elohim, in a 100 eons there will be no more Elohim left.

We see it happening to Findail in a mere matter of months. Despite all his efforts he becomes emotionally entangled with the mortal party he accompanies by the time they put out the Banefire. Forewarned was not enough to be forearmed in his case.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

shadowbinding shoe wrote:Two points I wanted to add:

First - I believe the contradiction in Cable Seadreamer's Earthsight vision is explained by him not having one vision but two different ones.

<snip>
This I think is the real shadow they suffer from. That quote strengthen it. The outside-world which is a "shadow cast by Elemesnedene" is something that frightens them because it threatens their immortal existence. Over time this stance became more and more entrenched so that while at first they were kind enough to at time be nice and listen to tales and give boons to visitors like the giants now they rebuff even those minimal contacts as too dangerous. The more unpleasant they are to outsiders the less chance there is that outsiders will manage to touch them.

I can't seem to locate your second point. I hope I didn't snip it.

Surely the history you are referring to has been shown to endanger the lives of individual Elohim. But this "shadow" is a threat to the entire race, something as significant as the Worm which was at rest or slumbering. Even LF, a thousand millennia ago, failed to have an effect on the Worm. Berek did not affect it. The only dangerous influence has been shown to be visitors from outside Time.

The second point starts from the quote and is about the shadow on the Elohim. It's an internal type of problem. If the Elohim care about what happens in the mortal world they might become vulnerable and eventually die or dissipate within their tasks. You say this is an individual threat and not a racial one but for a race that is eternal and presumably doesn't procreate this poses an existential threat. Yesterday it was the One Forest Elohim, in a 100 eons there will be no more Elohim left.

We see it happening to Findail in a mere matter of months. Despite all his efforts he becomes emotionally entangled with the mortal party he accompanies by the time they put out the Banefire. Forewarned was not enough to be forearmed in his case.

You make valid and interesting points, but then you reduce them to a single principle that doesn't necessarily apply everywhere. For example, I don't recall Findail ever becoming emotionally entangled with anybody. You might find an example here and there of Findail giving in to a demand or showing a trace of pity (e.g., regarding Covenant's plan to enter the Banefire). But even so, he didn't become emotionally entangled (that would be way out of character for him), and that is not the factor that doomed him.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: You make valid and interesting points, but then you reduce them to a single principle that doesn't necessarily apply everywhere. For example, I don't recall Findail ever becoming emotionally entangled with anybody. You might find an example here and there of Findail giving in to a demand or showing a trace of pity (e.g., regarding Covenant's plan to enter the Banefire). But even so, he didn't become emotionally entangled (that would be way out of character for him), and that is not the factor that doomed him.

Well, I read Findail's character differently.

But if you'll look back at the tale of the Elohim that saved the One Forest it's explicitly given as the reason for the Elohim isolating themselves from the world (due to fear of becoming emotionally entangled). This is pretty much straight from the horse's mouth.

shadowbinding shoe wrote:

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: You make valid and interesting points, but then you reduce them to a single principle that doesn't necessarily apply everywhere. For example, I don't recall Findail ever becoming emotionally entangled with anybody. You might find an example here and there of Findail giving in to a demand or showing a trace of pity (e.g., regarding Covenant's plan to enter the Banefire). But even so, he didn't become emotionally entangled (that would be way out of character for him), and that is not the factor that doomed him.

Well, I read Findail's character differently.

But if you'll look back at the tale of the Elohim that saved the One Forest it's explicitly given as the reason for the Elohim isolating themselves from the world (due to fear of becoming emotionally entangled). This is pretty much straight from the horse's mouth.

That was one of the valid points. What I am saying is that this is not a principle that one can apply everywhere.

You want a cage fight? Wait until The Last Dark.....omg...

spoonchicken wrote:You want a cage fight? Wait until The Last Dark.....omg...

Do I want one? I guess. His post just seemed reductionistic to me. But that doesn't mean his idea was WRONG, it's just that reducing things to a principle is the wrong approach to take. It's a bad premise. It is possible, however, to have bad premises and still reach a true conclusion.

Stave argued with Infelice about the shadow on their hearts by first catching her in a contradiction as to the nature or source of the shadow. This shadow is apparently whatever the elohim want it to be at a given moment, as it serves their arguments and predictions. Perhaps there is no shadow and the whole idea is a big lie, or perhaps its source lies within themselves.

Wherever it lies, Staves argument is puissant. Nothing Linden or Covenant did led Jeremiah to that point. The narrative in the first 100 pages of AATE seems designed to take responsibility away from Linden. Observe that Linden was even deprived of choosing her own companions on the search for Jeremiah. How many more passages contained in this book are designed simply for the purpose of supporting Stave's eventual argument against Infelice?

That is why I treat the Chrons as a vast mystery novel. Everything that happens serves as a clue to explain later events. A novel that required 3 years to write certainly can't be grasped in a single reading.

And if Donaldson expended so much calculated effort into supporting Stave's argument regarding the shadow, then I surmise that this shadow will serve to further some plot element or even a MBI (mind-blowing incident) three years from now.

I've always had my own theory, and a lot of what happened in the Last Chrons. sort of shot down my thoughts on the "shadow" of the Elohim.

I always assumed that because they are basically Earthpower incarnate, that anything that happens to the Earth, essentially affects them. So all of the decay that has been happening to the Earth since the beginning of Time, has affected the Elohim as well.

That's what I thought that Findail was referring to when he said that "we are not what we once were", and why there was dissent among the Elohim.

However, with Infelice declaring in AATE that the Elohim are merely guardians of the Worm, it sort of took the wind out of my Elohim/Earth relationship.

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:there is utterly no proof that Ravers have any effect on Elohim.

True, and since they are effectless against the Ranyhyn (probably because of their Earthpowerful natures), we can safely assume that no Raver is possessing an Elohim anytime soon.

But did the Ravers possess or dominate the Viles? No.

They wouldn't need to attack or possess the Elohim in order to seed self-doubt and self-hatred amongst them.

Something had to set Kastenessen onto the path to what he became, right? Was it a natural flaw, or was he "pushed" as it were?

As for Lord Foul, I think it's safe to say he's immune to the power of the Elohim. They may have been able to deal with the Sunbane for a time, but I believe Findail in that eventually it would have overrun them like everything else.

I think of the Sunbane as being like cancer in a healthy body (the Earth). The Elohim are like the body's immune system, which is capable of keeping an infection or tumor in check for a time, and lessening its effects. But without help the body's immune system cannot rout an aggressive tumor. Part of the problem is that the tumor is a corruption of the body's own cells, not a traditional invader.

Similarly, the Sunbane was a corruption of Earthpower. So therefore Earthpower itself was not sufficient to handle it.