Infelice/Findail, Earthpower/Despite, & other cage match

Post by **chaplainchris** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:42 pm

Ok, so I'm new, but I've read a thousand or so posts in the last few days, so forgive me if I'm retreading old ground. I want to talk about the Elohim, and specifically the trustworthiness of what Findail says of their motives and fears in WGW, vs. what Infelice says at the end of FR and the opening chapter of AATE. Basically, Findail admits the Sunbane and Foul are a big threat to the Elohim; Infelice says it wasn’t any big deal, and they could’ve handled it, and it’s these pesky folks from outside the universe that are the shadow on their hearts. (Like I believe Infelice *has* a heart, but I digress.)

Thanks to you wonderful people, I've now discovered that SRD admits in the GI that there's an internal inconsistency between the 2nd and Last Chronicles. This, of course, is re: the origin of the Guardian of the One Tree. Findail tells us in WGW that there was no Guardian until Berek appointed one, but we learn in the Last Chronicles that an Elohim was Appointed to Guard the One Tree, and that the Theomach, aka Kenaustin Ardenol, defeated and took the Guardian’s place.

I’d rather believe someone was lying, but since SRD says it’s an out and out error, I’ll go with that! And since SRD says we should go with the version of the story from the Last Chronicles as being true, ok. In some ways that makes more sense, since Brinn *did* tell us in OT that the legend of ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol pre-dated their visit to the Land. So it makes sense that the Guardian didn’t originate in the Land.

(I’ll speculate another time on what it means that Findail bowed to the Guardian; that Brinn didn’t so much replace as merge with/be subsumed into ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol; and that if Kenaustin Ardenol similarly subsumed/merged with the Appointed Guardian, this merging is somehow related to the, er, Elohimic ability to become whatever the Elohim wants. Usually this is expressed by the Elohim shapechanging, but at times Linden sees Elohim merge with trees, rocks, ground, etc., becoming inextricably mixed.

Hey, fingers, stop typing this stuff and get to Findail/Infelice! I said I’d speculate about the Guardian later, since I know SRD has said that it’s not so simple as the Guardian being a merger of Haruchai/Insequent/Elohim tossed in the blender and served with ice.)

Ok. So, Findail’s story about the Guardian, per the GI, is wrong. But it’s not that Findail lied, as I understand it; it’s more that it is retroactively altered, or something. When WGW was written, there was no Guardian prior to Berek coming; but now, per FR, there was, and there always was. (Which leads to speculations I’ll hold another time re: the Worm and the Arch of Time, and whether or not they’re two different things, and the reason that Berek/Theomach didn’t rouse the worm is not because there was no battle, but because there was no white gold – which alone channels the Wild Magic that is the keystone of the Arch/Worm, so that anybody *but* a white gold wielder could lop branches off the OT w/o disturbing the worm – or, no, Seadreamer’s the one that touched the OT, but if no white gold was present maybe it would’ve been ok…darn it, fingers, speculate another time!)

I digress a lot, had you noticed? I thought I noticed you noticing.

So…Findail no longer said what he said about the worm, but what about his comments on the Sunbane, and the Elohim’s machinations? Findail says, among other things: You have said that we serve the evil which you name Lord Foul the Despiser. That is untrue….Yet I must say to you openly that there is a shadow upon the hearts of the Elohim. It is seen in this, that we were able to conceive no path of salvation which would spare you. You have not forgotten that there were those among us who did not wish to spare you. Surely it is plain that for us the easiest path lay in the simple wresting from him of the ring. With wild magic could we bid any Despite defiance. Then for beings such as we are it would be no great task to achieve the perfection of the Earth. Yet that we did not do. Some among us feared the arrogance of such power, when a shadow plainly lay upon our hearts. And some saw that the entire price of such an act would fall upon you alone. You would be lost to yourselves, deprived of meaning and value. Perhaps the meaning and value of the Earth would be diminished as well.

From this, it seems that Findail considers the “shadow on the hearts of the Elohim” to be simply a shadow of arrogance and selfishness. (A shadow of Despite?) Rather than being a “laughing faery people” they are arrogant, overproud, and some among them are inclined to dismiss the pain of mortal beings. They are the Elohim, the Earth’s Wurd, its center, etc. Only they really matter.

Quite a shadow, indeed. But it’s only a shadow, not full-blown darkness – and some of them retain enough awareness to be wary of it. They realize that the very existence of such feelings means maybe they’re not so perfect after all, and if they act that way, they may diminish the Earth as a whole. So, according to Findail, we chose a harder path – to share with you the burden of redemption and the risk of doom. Supposedly they silence Covenant to prevent the “ill of power without sight”, hoping either to pressure Linden into taking the ring, or to pressure her to give the ring to Findail. Then we would have no reason to fear ourselves, for a power given is altogether different than one wrested away.

Well, Findail’s statements that a power given is different than a power stolen make some sense, given the necessity of freedom, though I have to question the idea that the Elohim could have just taken Covenant’s ring – wouldn’t that have reduced its power? Still, they probably could’ve taken by some stealthy means, even if not via direct force. And maybe even reduced wild magic, combined with their inherent powers, would’ve been as potent as Findail says, to resist Despite and perfect the Earth. Certainly I can believe that the Elohim would think so. And what Findail says about the shadow on their hearts seems much more honest than Infelice telling Linden that she and Covenant are the shadow. Even if Infelice just means that the Elohim feel reduced by knowledge of mortals from outside Creation with more power over than the Earth than they have. The Elohim believe that they have all answers and questions within them, that they are the answer to every question.

But we learn in PTP that Earthpower is not the answer to Despite. So even Earthpower incarnate isn’t the answer to Despite. Despite can always corrupt and twist Earthpower, despite the resistance of Law.

Infelice seems to dispute this. She tells Linden in FR that the Sunbane was no big deal – maybe it would’ve destroyed the Land, but the Elohim could handle it, and it didn’t threaten the Earth as a whole – not without white gold and wild magic in the mix. And therefore the Elohim’s machinations in the 2nd Chronicles are all aimed at Linden’s actions in Andelain in the Last Chronicles! In contrast, everything we saw in the 2nd Chronicles, including Seadreamer’s Earthsight, told us that the Sunbane was a wound that would grow to suck in the whole Earth, corrupting and perverting all Law. Even Findail says so, when he justifies not healing Covenant of the venom. Lacking the venom, you would be too small to threaten him (Foul)….And the Sunbane would grow. It would grow, devouring every land and sea in turn until even Elemesnedene itself had fallen, and still it would grow, and there would be no halt to it….he would remain trapped with the Arch. But no other stricture would limit his victory. Even we, the Elohim, would in time be reduced to mere playthings for his mirth. While Time endured, the Desecration of the world would not end at all.

A far cry from Infelice telling Linden that the Sunbane is no big deal, and that the Despiser doesn’t cast the shadow on the Elohim (doesn’t threaten their sense of superiority, in other words; Linden and Covenant threaten their sense of themselves, but Foul doesn’t?).

So who’s right? Findail tells us that he is answering as he may, hoping to persuade Covenant to surrender his ring. So he’s obviously biased. We don’t know what Infelice’s bias is, but she obviously doesn’t want Linden to proceed, and so her motives are equally suspect. I note that Infelice has no satisfactory answer when Linden asks what it was all for, everything that the Elohim did in the 2nd Chronicles. Infelice says their activities were all aimed at preventing Linden from rousing the Worm her in the Last Chronicles. But she couldn’t do that without the combo of white gold and the Staff; and she wouldn’t have the Staff w/o Findail the Appointed. In fact, Findail’s appointment itself, and his eventual sacrifice to become the new Staff, argue that the Sunbane was a real threat to the Earth and the Elohim, whatever Infelice says about it now.

And Findail’s explanation resonates with what we’ve been told about Earthpower not being the answer to Despite. However powerful, the Elohim are no match in the long run for Despite, and it’s only folks like Linden and Covenant that have beaten him. So if the Elohim were honest, they should view folks from outside the Arch as (at least) potential saviors.

So…who’s right, Infelice or Findail? Would the Elohim be “equal to all things” if Linden and Covenant didn’t mess up the picture? Or is Infelice full of it? Or is the truth something more ambiguous still?

Wow, long post.

Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:07 am

Who's right? The Last Chronicles has the correct version, as you noted from the GI. Is it all a matter of inconsistencies? Perhaps Findail lied. Is lying beneath any Elohim?
Some of them would rather have wrested the ring from Covenant. But isn't that stealing?

Arrogant and amoral. Yet I believe Infelice tells the truth insofar as she knows the truth, although sometimes the truth can be manipulated.

By the way, your post was the first one I've read to claim that the shadow on the hearts of the Elohim was arrogance.

Furthermore, are you saying that it's implausible that certain Elohim actions in the 2nd Chrons were designed to prevent events occurring in the Last? Not if Donaldson had it all planned out in general for over 20 years.

Post by **chaplainchris** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:45 am

Infelice in OT strikes me as more truthful than, say, Chant. But she clearly uses partial truths to manipulate, as you say - and she omits part of the truth to decieve Covenant into agreeing to be mindzapped.

Is outright lying beneath any Elohim? Probably. They have no problem with just refusing to answer and don't mind how angry this makes anyone. However...I think the Elohim lie to themselves, in their hubris.

I'm still develping my thoughts as I type and maybe I was premature in the first post. Maybe I'm groping my way toward suggesting that the shadow on their hearts is simply a way of saying that they're flawed - in a variety of ways, whether through arrogance, selfishness, lack of compassion, or simple fear. For most people, this is normal. But the Elohim believe, and tell everyone as well as themselves, that they are complete in themselves, the center of the earth, sufficient to every need, the answer to every question - not to mention being every question in the first place.

The shadow may then take different forms in different Elohim - in one like Chant, the shadow is seen in the arrogance of this belief, when clearly they have flaws. In another it might be seen as denial, as they attempt to hide their fear that this belief may be mistaken.

My argument would perhaps be clearer if I'd said that the "shadow on their hearts" is cast by anything that feels threatening to them. Anything that threatens their arrogant, moralistic certitude that they are the ultimate on Earth, and therefore whatever they do must be right.

This despite the fact that they're clearly fallible - one was defeated by the Theomach, and (if you believe them) none of them foresaw the ringwielder and the Sun-Sage being separate beings.

So, I buy Infelice's argument that people like Covenant and Linden are "the shadow" to the extent that, as beings from beyond the Earth, they are not bound by some things which bind the Elohim. This "shadows their hearts" - makes them feel bad - threatens their supremacy. Foul, in some ways, is also from outside, and if Earthpower is not the answer to Despite, then he too must threaten them - "shadow" their hearts - by threatening their supremacy. To that extent, I believe Findail's statements about the dangers of Foul and the Sunbane much more than I do Infelice's statements in FR, that the Sunbane was no big deal.

I can certainly believe that Donaldson had a lot of this story planned in advance, and that the Elohim did things based on their own foresight. But I see no evidence to back up Infelice's dismissal of the Sunbane - I think she's engaging in revisionist history, either to diminish Linden, or to make her/her people feel better about themselves, or both.

I don't like their diminishment of Linden and Covenant's victory in WGW, and I don't buy it.

Infelice may believe what she's saying, but I've always thought that the shadow is not some magical influence, dark power, or specific entity or entities. The real shadow is what it is for any thinking creature - fear of death, finitude, limits. Covenant and Linden arouse that fear currently - as Foul and the Sunbane did in the past - because in some ways they surpass the Elohim. It may be that the Elohimic arrogance is that to a greater or lesser extent they've bought into their own press - they believe they're _entitled_ to be without limits, and without fear. And so, as Findail said, you can see the shadow on them when some of them are willing to sacrifice Covenant and Linden. If they were as perfect and virtuous as they're reputed to be, they wouldn't act this way. The shadow of fear, of arrogance threatened, drives 'em to it.

Such is my thinking at the moment, anyway. Even if no one else agrees, I'm curious to see what you all think about Infelice's statements on the paltry threat of the Sunbane, esp. given Findail's statements about the dire threat of it!

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:21 pm

What a fantastic first(?) post!
You took all my random floating thoughts and questions about Infelice's comments and put it all together.

Findail might have been lying about the extent of the Sunbane to make Linden give him the Ring.
But, like you, I don't like that.
The Sunbane was going to grow and destroy the world, damn-it.
Although.....Sea-Dreamer's Earth-sight wasn't warning him about the Sunbane, it was about TC Destroying the Earth in a battle with the Worm.
So maybe Infelice was telling the truth.....arghghgh (Lucy frustrated cry)!!!

Post by **chaplainchris** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:30 pm

Thanks, High Lord.

Re: "Although.....Sea-Dreamer's Earth-sight wasn't warning him about the Sunbane, it was about TC Destroying the Earth in a battle with the Worm."

My vague memory is that Seadreamer's vision, in WL, is described as a wound in the Earth, which the Giants are Searching out. Seadreamer's vision is guiding them to the Land to confront the Sunbane, until Covenant meets them and co-opts them to go to the One Tree. I grant that I *may* be interpolating the first description of Seadreamer's vision with Linden's dream of Covenant's wound, which grows and grows without limit. But I think this is the first description we get of Seadreamer's vision.

His vision of the peril of the One Tree seems, if that's right, to come only after Covenant co-opts the quest, and doesn't invalidate his first vision.

I *think* this is right, but will check when I've got WL on hand.

Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:49 pm

I too was amazed at the quality of your first post on this forum, chaplainchris.

I don't know if the Elohim see themselves as virtuous. I don't think Donaldson represents them as virtuous either, or as being arrogant about their virtuous qualities. They are arrogant because, as far as power is concerned, they are the baddest monkeys in the monkey cage. (Compare their power, amorality, and arrogance to that of ancient Greek gods.) And they are amoral because they see themselves as being above all concern with good or evil. They only deal with it when they are absolutely forced out of their self-contemplation.

In my opinion, you use a double-standard when you choose to believe Findail more than you do Infelice. Is one Elohim inherently any more trustworthy than another? Did Covenant or Linden trust Findail?

Did anybody in the 2nd Chrons actually state what the shadow on the hearts of the Elohim consisted of? Did anybody in the 2nd Chrons actually reveal what the wound on the Earth consisted of?

All fingers pointed toward the Land for these answers - but what they found there was more than just the Sunbane, they also found humans from beyond the Land's universe.

This leaves an ambiguity in the story. I personally decided, during my reading of the 2nd, that the answer was the Sunbane. But that was only an assumption. Now Donaldson has revealed, through Infelice, that the shadow, and the wound, lies with beings from beyond the Earth, even Hile Troy for that matter.

Didn't Infelice state that, in the past, the source of the shadow was unknown to the Elohim? Would she lie about their lack of omniscience? Would any Elohim choose to reveal any failing or lack to a mere mortal unless it was a matter of sheer desperation, a question of their very survival?

Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:00 pm

Honninscrave in TWL:

"Among our generation, a Giant was born, brother of my bone and blood, and the Earth-Sight was in him. He is Cable Seadreamer, named for the vision which binds him, and he is voiceless, scalded mute by the extravagance and horror of what the Earth-Sight has seen. With the eyes of the gift, he beheld a wound upon the Earth, sore and terrible-a wound like a great nest of maggots, feeding upon the flesh of the world's heart. And he perceived that this wound, if left uncleansed, unhealed, would grow to consume all life and time, devouring the foundation and cornerstone of the Earth, unbinding Stone and Sea from themselves, birthing chaos.
"Therefore a Giantclave was held, and the Search given its duty. We are commanded to seek out this wound and oppose it, in defense of the Earth. For that reason, we set sail from our Home in the proudest dromond of all Giantships, Starfare's Gem. For that reason, we have followed Seadreamer's gaze across the wide oceans of the world-we, and twoscore of our people, who tend the Gem. And for that reason, we are here. The wound lies in this land, in the west. We seek to behold it, discover its nature, so that we may summon the Search to resist or cleanse it."

Post by **chaplainchris** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:57 pm

Worm - thanks for the compliment and for the WL quote - that's exactly what I was trying to remember! I think that pretty definitively describes the Sunbane as the wound in the Earth. Seadreamer's Earth-Sight, Linden's perceptions (from percipience as well as dreams), Covenant's understandings after the Soothtell, and Findail's maundering in WGW immediately after the crisis of the One Tree, they all line up. The Sunbane was a wound in the Earth that would have spread and spread to corrupt all Law. It wouldn't have broken the Arch - but everything within would have fallen to Despite. Including, according to Findail, the Elohim.

At least, that's what we believed until Infelice in FR says, in effect, that the Sunbane was no big deal for us Elohim and Foul’s generally beneath our notice, except when he messes with the Arch – which he can only do with the help of you pesky people from beyond time. You’re the real threat!

There are two issues here, I think. One, the simpler one, deals with the true nature and threat of the Sunbane. Was it a threat to the Elohim, or not? The other issue, much harder, deals with the nature (and threat?) of the Elohim? Can any of them be trusted? Is it, as *they* proclaim, “incondign” for mere mortals like us to even try to judge or comprehend them? And am I using a double standard in choosing to believe Findail over Infelice?

Edit: this is getting long, so I’m splitting the two issues into two replies. First issue first: What was the true nature of the Sunbane, and who is more honest about its potential threat to the Elohim – Infelice, or Findail?

To this I repeat, as above, that Seadreamer’s Earth-Sight, Linden’s percipience, Covenant’s beliefs, *and* Findail’s testimony during the time of the Sunbane all line up. The Sunbane was a threat to all life. Time would survive, but everything within the Arch, even the Elohim, would’ve been corrupted into Foul’s playthings.

Worm, I primarily believe Findail rather than Infelice because Findail’s statements about the Sunbane are consistent with everything we know about Law, Earthpower, Despite, and Wild Magic. The Elohim are Earthpower incarnate, but in the end I don’t believe they could have stopped or healed the Sunbane. Earthpower is constrained, powered, and protected by Law. The Sunbane is a corruption of Earthpower via corruption of the Law that shapes and protects that power. Eventually that corruption of Law would have tainted even the Elohim. (In fact, at one time I theorized that the shadow on their hearts was exactly that – an echo of the corruption of the Law.) Maybe it would've taken eons or longer for them to fall. After all, in the Land, such Earthpowerful manifestations as aliantha, Glimmermere, and Caer-Caveral's stewardship of Andelain had already resisted the Sunbane for ages.

But as Caveral says, they were doomed to fail that war, and eventually the Elohim would've failed, too.

And then, in FR, Infelice dares to say this: "It was not for the Despiser's defeat that we sought to impose the burden of wild magic upon you. Had you indeed 'broken', as you believe, both the Land and the Earth would have suffered great harm. That is sooth. But Time would have endured. Deprived of its rightful wielder, white gold is not puissant to destroy the Arch." (Then Infelice says some frankly unbelievable stuff about the Staff of Law - but more on that later, maybe in another post.) "And we are the Elohim, equal to all things. Across the centuries, we would have healed much. Perhaps the Despiser's blight upon the Land would have remained, but the Earth we would have preserved and restored."

To this, I cry "Foul!" Or something more pungent. No. No way. Or I'm missing something. The Elohim couldn’t have beaten Foul – even for a measly few eons like Covenant did (an accomplishment they consistently belittle)! Earthpower is not the answer to Despite. Foul’s touch was able to twist the seasons and the weather during the first Chronicles, and Dead Elena wielded the Staff of Law itself in his service. Even Infelice, in the OT, says that ”We are what we are, and what we are not, we can never become. He whom you name the Despiser is a being of another kind entirely. We are effectless against him.” 3500 years after the Sunbane’s threat is over – thanks to Covenant and Linden, the "scary outside of time people" - Infelice seems to feel safe in poo-pooing the earlier threat, and Covenant and Linden’s heroism, and Infelice glosses right over the fact that she and her people are “effectless” against Foul.

But with Foul around, they couldn’t have fixed the Sunbane. Earthpower is not the answer to Despite. And sure, the Sunbane is a matter of corrupted Earthpower made possible because the original Staff of Law was destroyed. But even Linden required both wild magic *and* the new Staff to heal the Sunbane, and that was possible because Foul was reduced in his attacks on Covenant and the Arch, and he couldn’t prevent her.

Findail, in WGW, on Starfare’s Gem, mentions that he’s trying to persuade Covenant to give up his ring – either to Linden or to the Elohim. Granted, this makes him a biased witness. But what he tells us is consistent with EVERYTHING we’ve learned about the Land and the Despiser, Sunbane and Law, Wild magic and Earthpower.

What Infelice tells us is not consistent. It may be that SRD is retconning some stuff, which is his right obviously. Certainly he ended up, accidentally, retconning the origins of the Guardian of the One Tree. Maybe he’s also retconning the threat of the Sunbane.

But I’m not gonna take Infelice’s say-so for it. She also has an agenda – she’s trying to deflect Linden from her purpose, and anything that diminishes her and Covenant and makes Linden doubt herself is good. So yeah – no reason to trust Infelice, and what she says doesn’t ring true. So…for now, I believe Findail’s testimony about the Sunbane.

Post by **chaplainchris** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:44 pm

Now, the other, harder issue: the nature (and threat?) of the Elohim. Can any of them be trusted? Is it, as *they* proclaim, “incondign” for mere mortals like us to even try to judge or comprehend them? Are they so powerful and god-like that we shouldn’t dare? And am I using a double standard in choosing to believe Findail over Infelice? You say, Worm, that the Elohim are “ amoral because they see themselves as being above all concern with good or evil. They only deal with it when they are absolutely forced out of their self-contemplation. In my opinion, you use a double-standard when you choose to believe Findail more than you do Infelice. Is one Elohim inherently any more trustworthy than another? Did Covenant or Linden trust Findail? Did anybody in the 2nd Chrons actually state what the shadow on the hearts of the Elohim consisted of?”

I *do* trust Findail marginally more than Infelice, and I think for good reason. I'm not applying a double standard, I'm applying the same standard to both. That standard is, basically, the standard of compassion and respect for others. Or we might call it right and wrong, or simple decency. Or good and evil.

I don’t believe the Elohim *do* see themselves as above all concern for good and evil. I *do* believe the Elohim see themselves as the highest good around, and that mortals are, as Linden once said, “puny and pointless” in their sight, not worth getting worked up over despite all their suffering and dying. They are the heart of the Earth, and no one, in their opinion, can judge them if they sit around Elemesnedene and choose to let the Earth rot everywhere else. So Daphin says in OT.

But in OT, as Linden listens to the bells, we learn there is an internal debate among the Elohim. Some among them admit that Honniscrave is right, that they are altered from what they once were, that they are more unkind and selfish. ”In time past, would we not have taken this cost upon ourselves? Yet now we require the price of him, that we will be spared it.” After Covenant is silenced, some of the bell voices are savage with victory. Others express a deep rue. Findail, in WGW, says there is something wrong with the Elohim, and it’s shown in the fact that some of the Elohim had no wish or desire to spare Covenant or Linden, and felt nothing was wrong with stealing Covenant’s ring, or his mind.

And Findail says that Kastenessen wronged the woman he fell in love with, that he blighted her, that he transgressed.

What this says to me is that while the Elohim only deal with the outside world, or with threats to the world, when they are “absolutely forced out of their self-contemplation”, they nevertheless are *not* amoral. They do have standards of right and wrong – they admit that Kastenessen did an evil, and they (some of them, at least) admit that they are less caring for others than they used to be, and that this is a result of (or symptom of) “the shadow” on their hearts. Since they do have standards of right and wrong, they are not amoral.

The Greek god comparison is very apt – but the Greek gods were also not amoral. Zeus was patron of hospitality, avenger of wrongs done to strangers, the keeper of oaths and punisher of dishonest traders. His many escapades, even apart from the erotic ones, show a failure to live up to standards which the gods nevertheless were believed to espouse and enforce. They just failed to enforce them among themselves.

Thus go the Elohim. They know right and wrong, they judge others, but some of them refuse to apply that lens to themselves, and they all agree that no one else should.

This is not amorality – a denial of standards of right and wrong – but arrogance. The Elohim are powerful, and knowledgeable, but humans dealing with them really only have two choices. Trust and obey them blindly. Or judge them by their deeds.

Linden and Covenant both surpass them, saved the Land when they couldn’t, and their dealings with Covenant and Linden make it possible for us to judge them by some scale of compassion and respect for others, or good and evil.

Neither Infelice or Findail rates highly on this scale, honestly. But Findail finds the compassion (with Linden's prompting) to grant Seadreamer a night of sleep without dreams, at a time when Seadreamer's mute torment is too much to bear. And when Covenant goes to the Banefire for his caamora, we read this: The yellow anguish of the Appointed's eyes had not changed. His face was a wasteland of fear and old pain. But the anger with which he had so often denounced Covenant was gone. In its place, the Elohim emitted simple rue. Softly, he said, “You are going to your death, ring-wielder. I comprehend you now. It is a valiant hazard. I cannot answer for its outcome - and I know not how I will prove worthy of you. But I will not leave you.”

This certainly doesn’t excuse Findail for anything – his repeated refusals to aid the company, the harm he brings to Andelain – as Linden says, “Findail showed alternate compassion and disdain as if both were simply facets of his mendacity.”

But Findail is not wholly immune to compassion. Infelice…from her, I’ve seen nothing except that she is the crown of the Elohim, their chief, and she seems to be chief in arrogance. And it is arrogance that makes the Elohim turn their backs on morality and simple decency.

And *that* is the mark of the shadow on their hearts. The thing about the "threat of beings from outside time" is true from a sideways perspective. They "shadow" the Elohim because they make them question their arrogant self-assuredness. But the deeper shadow is that they refuse to apply their own standards of right and wrong to themselves, arrogance of the highest order.

That’s my judgement, “incondign” or not!

Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:19 pm

chaplainchris wrote:This certainly doesn’t excuse Findail for anything – his repeated refusals to aid the company, the harm he brings to Andelain – as Linden says, “Findail showed alternate compassion and disdain as if both were simply facets of his mendacity.”

Of course you realize that "mendacity" means "dishonesty."

Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:24 pm

I should add to this conversation that the shadow on the heart of the Elohim and the wound on the Earth are not necessarily the same thing.

Post by **chaplainchris** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:46 pm

Mendacity - yep, and as I (meant to) indicate, I don't trust or excuse Findail - I just find him somewhat more sympathetic than Infelice, and find his statements easier to believe than hers because they're consistent with what we know apart from the Elohim.

And yeah, the shadow and wound are clearly different, at this point. I think I mentioned that I *speculated*, back when I first read the 2nd chronicles, that the Sunbane's disruption of Law might be causing some kind of shift in or unconscious corruption of the Elohim. But clearly Linden's Healing the Sunbane didn't remove the shadow.

Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:40 pm

chaplainchris wrote:Mendacity - yep, and as I (meant to) indicate, I don't trust or excuse Findail - I just find him somewhat more sympathetic than Infelice, and find his statements easier to believe than hers because they're consistent with what we know apart from the Elohim.

But you also stated you don't know that much about Infelice, so you don't have much to go on. She's arrogant - ok, nothing new there since they are all arrogant. That's an easy judgment to make even before "meeting" her.

chaplainchris wrote:And yeah, the shadow and wound are clearly different, at this point. I think I mentioned that I *speculated*, back when I first read the 2nd chronicles, that the Sunbane's disruption of Law might be causing some kind of shift in or unconscious corruption of the Elohim. But clearly Linden's Healing the Sunbane didn't remove the shadow.

Yes. A shadow and a wound don't even seem related. And there is not much discussion of this shadow until the end of the Last Chrons. But here is a good quote from TOT:

Covenant-

"These Elohim consider themselves the center of the Earth. According to him, everything important happens here. The rest of the world is like a shadow cast by Elemesnedene. Foul and the Sunbane are just symptoms. The real disease is something else-he didn't bother to say exactly what. Something about a darkness threatening the heart of the Earth. He wants my ring. He wants the wild magic. So he can attack the disease."

So the shadow or "darkness" is not Foul or the Sunbane. Chant didn't bother to tell Covenant what the shadow was - we know now that it's because he didn't know what it was.

Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:18 pm

chaplainchris wrote:Findail, in WGW, on Starfare’s Gem, mentions that he’s trying to persuade Covenant to give up his ring – either to Linden or to the Elohim. Granted, this makes him a biased witness. But what he tells us is consistent with EVERYTHING we’ve learned about the Land and the Despiser, Sunbane and Law, Wild magic and Earthpower.

Then why the mendacity in Findail? It is not so much what he reveals - thankfully he keeps his story consistent with what we know (some of which we wouldn't even have known without Findail) - but in what he doesn't reveal. Most of the time he refused to answer questions. And I have to ask, what is inconsistent in anything Infelice states? Does Infelice contradict anything you're learned about the Land, the Despiser, the Sunbane, Law, Wild magic, and Earthpower?

Obviously she is right about Covenant and Linden's failure with the Despiser, because here he is back again to menace the Earth. Wild magic, according to our knowledge of it, has the power to cast down Despite forever even if the Elohim by themselves are effectless, and the Sunsage refused to make such use of it. You are skeptical regarding Infelice's knowledge of the SoL and its effect on the Timewarden, yet there is no knowledge to back you up on that skepticism. She can't have contradicted anything we already know because it was not in our knowledge base. Knowing how the SoL would affect the Timewarden is not within our ken.

Infelice adds a bit more to our knowledge of Linden's incompetence. (Linden admits it even if she calls it weakness.) Linden failed beneath Mt. Thunder at the end of WGW. Why? Because she cured the symptom but did not defeat the cause, Lord Foul. I know it was, to us, a beautiful ending to a great story. But once again, the Despiser was only cast down temporarily. And now we know why - Donaldson had in general outline another Chrons plotted out. This would not have been possible if Linden and Covenant had succeeded in wiping out Despite forever, that is to say in the context of the novel, if they had been competent opponents and had not been afraid to fight fire with fire. (Lord Foul chose to describe Covenant as "stupid" and he wasn't too far off.) I think readers with some amount of acumen would have seen this at the end of the 2nd Chrons, not just the coming of another Chrons, but the fact that Foul losing power and vanishing does not signify the end of him, anymore than it did in the 1st Chrons where he was merely reduced to an embryonic state.

Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:34 pm

chaplainchris wrote:And *that* is the mark of the shadow on their hearts. The thing about the "threat of beings from outside time" is true from a sideways perspective. They "shadow" the Elohim because they make them question their arrogant self-assuredness. But the deeper shadow is that they refuse to apply their own standards of right and wrong to themselves, arrogance of the highest order.

That’s my judgement, “incondign” or not!

The judgment doesn't seem incondign, or beyond you. But Infelice states one thing, you state another. You could both be wrong, but you can't both be right. Your only evidence, however, is that Linden and Covenant "make them question their arrogant self-assuredness." This however is not born out by the text.

Infelice's evidence seems stronger because it is born out by the text - by Linden's incompetence, or (let's not be so hard on Linden) in general the presence of beings from beyond Time who cannot handle the situation they find themselves in, who through their power and incompetence could bring the entire thing crumbling down like trusting a 2-year-old to hold an expensive vase. It is born out, as Infelice pointed out, by their very presence that day in Andelain. It is born out by the fact of Covenant's resurrection. It is born out by the wakening of the Worm.

Our only hope is that the Elohim are wrong to have such little faith. They are apparently induced by this shadow, and by their fear of the Worm, to see these beings from another world as a threat. Otherwise, they would only regard them out of simple curiosity, like exotic fish in an aquarium. At times, on the other hand, incompetence can have beneficial effects.

Post by **Ur Dead** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:59 am

Seems to me that the Ravers were working on the Elohim, abeit very slowly.
The shadow the Elohim acknowledge seems to parallel what the ravers did to the Viles.

Planting self doubt.

Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:46 am

Ur Dead wrote:Seems to me that the Ravers were working on the Elohim, abeit very slowly.
The shadow the Elohim acknowledge seems to parallel what the ravers did to the Viles.

Planting self doubt.

You've drawn a parallel between separate events, and created a suspicion in our minds, but there is utterly no proof that Ravers have any effect on Elohim.

Post by **Vraith** » Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:19 pm

Fun thoughts, peeps.
What I think I see is that arrogance isn't the shadow, but it is arrogance that precludes them from recognizing the shadow. In fact, naming it a shadow is an illustration of their misunderstanding. A shadow is cast by something, so the Elohim look for the thing casting the shadow...according to Infelice it is outsiders with unlimited power and little understanding.
They're wrong, it isn't a shadow, it is not cast by some other/some outside thing. The shadow is in them, a thing itself, and it is error, the simple truth that they can be, often are, wrong and refuse to acknowledge it.
All of their visions/prophecies/acts [much like the Power of Command], have come back to haunt, had unintended consequences. A couple examples:
Part of the current danger is directly their own fault...they judged Kastenessen, even though warned, they picked him to punish him...they could have picked someone else...and look where it has led...the things Kast. was supposed to prevent are far more potent and harmful now...before they were voracious but natural, a forest fire. Now they're a an army with an unlimited supply of napalm bombs.
And the Sun-sage thing. They never even considered that the vision of one person might have been incorrect, and aided according to the actual situation. Instead, they did everything they could to force reality to conform to their vision...forced the healer and the wielder to be at odds with each other, instead of living with the situation and planning ways to help them learn to work together.
That there are beings with unlimited power and limited knowledge is not the cause of the shadow, it is a reflection of themselves, an analogy that they fail to comprehend: they also have [nearly] unlimited power, but limited knowledge.

Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:11 pm

Vraith wrote:Fun thoughts, peeps.
What I think I see is that arrogance isn't the shadow, but it is arrogance that precludes them from recognizing the shadow. In fact, naming it a shadow is an illustration of their misunderstanding. A shadow is cast by something, so the Elohim look for the thing casting the shadow...according to Infelice it is outsiders with unlimited power and little understanding.
They're wrong, it isn't a shadow, it is not cast by some other/some outside thing. The shadow is in them, a thing itself, and it is error, the simple truth that they can be, often are, wrong and refuse to acknowledge it.
All of their visions/prophecies/acts [much like the Power of Command], have come back to haunt, had unintended consequences. A couple examples:
Part of the current danger is directly their own fault...they judged Kastenessen, even though warned, they picked him to punish him...they could have picked someone else...and look where it has led...the things Kast. was supposed to prevent are far more potent and harmful now...before they were voracious but natural, a forest fire. Now they're a an army with an unlimited supply of napalm bombs.
And the Sun-sage thing. They never even considered that the vision of one person might have been incorrect, and aided according to the actual situation. Instead, they did everything they could to force reality to conform to their vision...forced the healer and the wielder to be at odds with each other, instead of living with the situation and planning ways to help them learn to work together.
That there are beings with unlimited power and limited knowledge is not the cause of the shadow, it is a reflection of themselves, an analogy that they fail to comprehend: they also have [nearly] unlimited power, but limited knowledge.

That is an analysis that bears some weight. The world outside the Clachan is supposedly only a shadowy reflection from the perspective of the Elohim. The outside world cannot cause the shadow because a shadow cannot cast a shadow. But the Elohim were aware of this shadow on their hearts before the events in the 2nd Chrons, before they began their manipulative scheming.

However, there is one external factor that could cause the shadow on their hearts: visitors from outside the Land's universe, because that universe stands outside the Arch and cannot be a mere reflection.

I don't have enough evidence before me to doubt Infelice, we'll have read and find out for sure. I have my own "story" and I'm sticking to it because it works well with the "incompetent Linden" hypothesis.

Post by **shadowbinding shoe** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:17 pm

Two points I wanted to add:

First - I believe the contradiction in Cable Seadreamer's Earthsight vision is explained by him not having one vision but two different ones.

When we first meet him he has been having a vision about the dangers of the Sunbane (and/or the Banefire?) His lack of strong reaction to the otherworldly visitors indicates that it's not about them.

His behavior remains pretty much constant until they visit Elemesnedene. After spending time alone with an Elohim he falls into despair. What happened? The Elohim he was with gave him a second vision. A vision of what will happen in the One Tree isle if Thomas Covenant cuts a branch from the tree. This danger he is shown is much more immediate and destructive than the Sunbane which would take thousands of years to affect the giant homeland.

Looking at what happened when they land on the One Tree island it becomes obvious why he was given this vision. The Elohim have worked hard to stage this earth-shattering danger. They goaded Covenant to go there, enabled the party to find it and hid from them the danger of Waking The Worm. They planned this, along with other dangers along the way, all in the hopes that Covenant would lose his ring to Linden or even better, to Findail. But if they had all been clueless and Thomas Covenant had used his ring to cut a branch from the tree, the Worm would have woken and the Elohim would have been doomed. So they gave Cable Seadreamer the knowledge of the danger (knowing he couldn't warn the others) as an insurance against their self-annihilation by the worm. And it worked (except for them gaining the ring)

"These Elohim consider themselves the center of the Earth. According to him, everything important happens here. The rest of the world is like a shadow cast by Elemesnedene. Foul and the Sunbane are just symptoms. The real disease is something else-he didn't bother to say exactly what. Something about a darkness threatening the heart of the Earth. He wants my ring. He wants the wild magic. So he can attack the disease."

We should remember the bit of history about the One Forest and the Elohim that saved it. This is a defining moment in the history of the Elohim. That is the moment when they decided it was dangerous to get out into the world. Their lesson was: if you visit the outside world you might be touched by its beauty or pain. And once you start having an emotional attachment to things in it you might be tempted to help and in the process become vulnerable. The Elohim that helped the One Forest cared for it and because it acted, lost itself.

(This has parallels in stories about immortals that fall in love with mortal beings and thereby become mortals themselves. Tolkien used this motif in his books for example)

They don't huddle together and never leave their place because they're too arrogant to see any value in the things outside themselves, they do it because they fear they might get hurt (particularly if they start to care about anything beside themselves). The geography of their island strongly support this. Why have a race of all-powerful beings that can dismiss practically any danger that comes their way arranged their home as a fortress surrounded by tall impenetrable cliff who's only entrance, 'the Raw' is a giant pliers' deathtrap. Linden remarks on its unnaturalness and very strong inhospitable atmosphere.

This I think is the real shadow they suffer from. That quote strengthen it. The outside-world which is a "shadow cast by Elemesnedene" is something that frightens them because it threatens their immortal existence. Over time this stance became more and more entrenched so that while at first they were kind enough to at time be nice and listen to tales and give boons to visitors like the giants now they rebuff even those minimal contacts as too dangerous. The more unpleasant they are to outsiders the less chance there is that outsiders will manage to touch them.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Infelice/Findail, Earthpower/Despite, & other cage match

Infelice/Findail, Earthpower/Despite, & other cage match