Cambo's What Has Gone Before

[Savor Dam]

Menolly, when did Hyperception write that? The day AATE was released (as the FB note seems to indicate)? Really?

Sometimes it is better to not overly contemplate / obsess over the "consequences." Once you have visualized the shifts in reality you require to achieve a desired future, considered your intent carefully enough to be sure it conforms with your true ethics, and you have decided to bring that future into being...

Do It. Don't waffle. Don't make conventional limits an excuse; sidestep them. Make it happen, bring that reality out of shadow and into Light.

Or do not...but what you want is there waiting if you are willing to reach for it. Choose. Act.

[Cambo]

Brilliant, thought provoking stuff, Menolly. Please thank Hyperception for sharing his...high perceptions.

[Avatar]

Interesting posts. It's really hard though to comment on another's spiritual journey. For a start, it's a personal experience, for another thing, it's a wholly subjective experience. Calling any part of it into question is as pointless as telling the pope that there is no god.

I was raised a catholic, although not particularly onerously. By the time I hit 14/15 I'd slid fairly effortlessly into atheism, lacking any sort of faith of my own. Went through the same sort of anti-theism thing for a few years, and still find it hard to understand why intelligent people feel compelled to some sort of faith, but hey, whatever gets you through the day, right?

Did a lot of drugs in my time, and have always been particularly fascinated by psychadelics. Still try and take a bit of acid or some shrooms at least once a year, just to blow the cobwebs out. Never, ever, had what I would call a religious experience while tripping. Never felt for one instant that there was a god or a unifying spiritual presence or anything like that.

If anything, my psychadelic experiences cemented more firmly my appreciation of the universe as an unconcious (sub-conscious?) object. Still a bit of a solipsist at heart I'm afraid.

I do know that psychadelics forever changed the way I perceived the world. And for the better. But spiritually? I become less spiritual it seems, as time goes by. The world is incredible enough without having to rely on some imaginary magical beings to make it better or more interesting.

--A

[Menolly]

Please thank Hyperception for sharing his...high perceptions.

Now I'm curious if you read his post thanking Edge for creating his Edgetar where he mentions the explanation of his username, or if you are doing a play on words yourself...

[Cambo]

Ha! Nope, I was just being a smart alec. Never read that post. It is a very cool avatar, though.

[Cambo]

Calling any part of it into question is as pointless as telling the pope that there is no god.

Questioning, is I think, a good thing for faith. If your faith-based beliefs can withstand questioning from yourself or others, they will be re-affirmed. If they cannot, it's a sign they need to be reconsidered, adapted, evolved, possibly abandoned altogether. I don't understand people who get all hot under the collar when people question their faith. A personal faith, or lack thereof, is one of the most important choices about ourselves we can make. Refusing to question the choice in any way...seems almost irresponsible.

Went through the same sort of anti-theism thing for a few years, and still find it hard to understand why intelligent people feel compelled to some sort of faith, but hey, whatever gets you through the day, right?

Meanwhile, us spiritual types are shaking our heads, going: "That Avatar, he's clearly so intelligent. Why can't he see what's right in front of him? Such a shame..." (Just kidding )

Did a lot of drugs in my time, and have always been particularly fascinated by psychadelics. Still try and take a bit of acid or some shrooms at least once a year, just to blow the cobwebs out. Never, ever, had what I would call a religious experience while tripping. Never felt for one instant that there was a god or a unifying spiritual presence or anything like that.

If anything, my psychadelic experiences cemented more firmly my appreciation of the universe as an unconcious (sub-conscious?) object. Still a bit of a solipsist at heart I'm afraid.

I do know that psychadelics forever changed the way I perceived the world. And for the better. But spiritually? I become less spiritual it seems, as time goes by. The world is incredible enough without having to rely on some imaginary magical beings to make it better or more interesting.

We come again to subjectivity. I would say that experiences like psychedelics, meditation, anything that removes you from consensus reality, their value is that they will teach you things about yourself, and your place in the world. Seems there is no inherent spirituality in your nature. Being raised a Catholic and "effortlessly sliding" into atheism would seem to indicate this. And that's a good thing. Everyone has their own answers to their life. Part of your answer is atheism.

Which is why your perception was changed for the better by psychedelic trips which made you less spiritual, while my perception was changed for the better by trips that confirmed my spirituality. When you find your answer, the world takes on an intense clarity. When you try to deny your answer, things become muddy, confused and upsetting. It's just obvious to you that there is no God, and you find the very idea of one bizarre.
It's just obvious to me that the Greater Self exists, and I can't imagine the world without it. Again, these are both good things.

Oh, and chew up some mushies for me, since I'm now banned for life. They were always my favourite.

[Fist and Faith]

Went through the same sort of anti-theism thing for a few years, and still find it hard to understand why intelligent people feel compelled to some sort of faith, but hey, whatever gets you through the day, right?

Meanwhile, us spiritual types are shaking our heads, going: "That Avatar, he's clearly so intelligent. Why can't he see what's right in front of him? Such a shame..." (Just kidding )

Don't worry, Av. I got your back, dude!

[Cambo]

I'll take you all on! DURKA DURK MUHAMMED ALI!

[Avatar]

It's just obvious to you that there is no God, and you find the very idea of one bizarre.
It's just obvious to me that the Greater Self exists, and I can't imagine the world without it. Again, these are both good things.

I tend to agree. If you believe in a god or whatever, and act as though there was one, for you, it is the same as if one exists. Whether one actually does or not does not matter.

Reality is what each of us believes it to be. They're not mutually exclusive, because it does not matter what we believe. All that matters is how we live our lives.

--A

[Cambo]

I concur. But, out of curiosity, what to you make of the criticism of my beliefs that some atheists put across? Accepting that the particulars of my spiritual beliefs are unlikely to inspire me to do harm towards others, they argue that the nature of my beliefs- of any worldview involving faith based reasoning- is inherently dangerous. The very fact that I openly espouse beliefs founded in subjectivity, personal experience, and faith...this, they argue validates all the nasty aspects of faith based reasoning. Religious war, homophobia, subjugation of women...all arise from faith based reasoning. Any belief system that incorporates faith is part of the problem.

I have my own answers to these allegations, but I'm curious as to what you (or Fist and Faith, or any other atheist reading this) makes of them.

[Fist and Faith]

Those atheists are wrong. It is not inherently dangerous.

Some people are vicious, murdering, raping bastards. Those among them who, for what sometimes seem like incomprehensible reasons, call themselves members of one religion or another take (or pervert) whatever passages they need from the sacred texts and dogma of that religion to justify the things they want to do.

Some people want to do nothing but help anyone they can in any way they can. Those among them who call themselves members of a religion are also able to find support for their way of life in their religion's words.

[Avatar]

Pretty much agree with Fist. It's not inherently dangerous. The potential for "danger" lies in the subjective application of those beliefs.

All knowledge, (and all belief) is morally neutral. They gain moral bias/alignment only in the manner in which you act on them, or in the case of knowledge, by the use to which it is put.

As always, it is not the belief which is the dangerous thing...it is the person wielding it.

--A

[danlo]

You don't even want to get me going (dAN [now known as _____]'s jokes about me are almost true) I could tell ye stories that would curl yer hairs. Never could entertain atheism though, as I have to believe in myself

[Fist and Faith]

You were a great host when I stayed at your place. I was entertained quite nicely.




Wait for it...

[Cambo]

Never could entertain atheism though, as I have to believe in myself

Give us this day our great Zindell, and forgive us our plot spoilers, as we forgive those who spoil against us.[/quote]

[Fist and Faith]

The memory of all things is in all things.

Still, best quote ever:
Thou art God. That which groks.

[Cambo]

Age 20- Eastern Philosophy and meditative practice

So after I got my life sorted out and was back at uni for my second year, I found myself without both my favourite recreational drug and my main spiritual tools. I never, ever considered getting back into drugs, but I felt my spiritual beliefs were becoming no more than that; professed beliefs, whereas experience has always been an integral part of my spirituality. Adding to this was that the first six months after my epsisode I was doped to the gills on anti-psychotics. These were necessary, but the numbing effect they had made deep spiritual seeking pretty difficult.

As luck would have it, just as I came off the anti-psychotics (and after the worst of the withdrawals were over) I took a mysticism paper for religious studies. There I encountered the transcendental aspects of eastern religion, and meditative practice. Religions such as Buddhism, with a strong focus on experiental spiritual practice really inspired me. And the idea that mystical experience might be something you can bring about of your own will, using only your own mind, was not something that had occurred to me. My experiences were all either spontaneous or chemically induced.

So, I began to meditate. I began gradually, but by a couple of weeks in it became a daily practice upon rising. It is perhaps the one thing this naturally slothful fella can be relied upon to be found doing on any given day, along with listening to music. That is simply because I get so much out of it. It removes me from consensus reality as completely as any psychedelic. At the same time, there is a...quietness to it. It brings a feeling of peace unmatched by anthing I've ever experienced. That peaceful feeling reamins throughout most of the day. Most people don't notice, and I don't really behave any differently than I did before. But it's like there's a stable centre to me that wasn't there before, and can't be touched. I am a passioante person, and see that as a positive thing, but passions can be volatile. Carrying around this little core of peace and acceptance...well, it's one of those little changes that is small but profound. I fully believe that my meditative practice puts me into direct contact with the Greater Self, the panenthesistic life force I have felt since my earliest mystical experiences. And as I improve my practice, the link will become stronger and stronger. I had a conversation with Fist elsewhere about universal Love acting exactly the same as universal indifference. With that in mind, I should stress that the stronger link I feel with the Greater Self is a result ofmy actions. It is no indication that meditative practitioners are somehow favoured, and blessed with clearer perceptions. Some eastern religions teach this, but the idea that the divine could have any kind of favourites is bizarre to me. The achievements of the practitioner are theirs alone, gained by their own determination. It doesn't matter to the Greater Self in the slightest if I meditate. It only matters to me.

And just as a bitchy little aside, eastern philosophy, and meditation in particular, get a damn rough deal in the western cultural perception. The New Age movement has, I think, a share of the blame in this. Meditation has been seen almost as a health benefit, above anything else. Ironic when the whole point of Buddhist meditation is to rid you of attachment to the body. Honestly, look at what's happened to Yoga. It's been thrown in with Pilates as this trendy thing to do to keep fit, while dabbling in pseudo-spiritualism. Yoga, in it's proper form, is one of the most difficult, and highest of meditative disciplines. And people don't seem to realise- I certainly didn't- just how powerfully meditation alters your consciousness. There's a reportedly true story about how some counter culture guru- I forget who, if it wasn't Timothy Leary it was one of his bunch- went to India to find a famous guru. The guy wanted to share some LSD with him, expecting to blow the guru's mind. The guru willingly took a very high dose of LSD, and it had no visible effect on him. When asked what he was experiencing, the guru, trying not to be offensive, basically said the acid was like a little toy, somewhat amusing, but easily set aside. Easily set aside. Anyone here whose taken acid will likely agree with me that a high dose is not lightly set aside.

[Cambo]

PS Fist, where is that quote from? I like it.

[Fist and Faith]

HOLY...!!!! Dude, if you've never read Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, then... I don't know what really outrageous comparison to make. But do yourself a favor! Among the best, most loved and respected sci-fi books ever.

Uh, well, that is, if you meant the second quote. The first one was from the Neverness books. Which you should also surely read. Day-um!!

[Cambo]

Uh, I mean, of course I've read them. Both of them. Er, I just forgot about the grokking part. That's all.

*gives up scrambling to save his literary credibility*

No, haven't read either. Although I have learned of Neverness through here, and requested in for Christmas. I will be sure to correct this shameful gap in my edification ASAP.