Kevin's Watch

Yep. Whatever gets you through the day.

--A

High Lord Tolkien wrote:It's interesting.
You're in a unique position of influencing which type of church your kids might go to but , am I reading this right? you yourself are an atheist?

You didn't mention if it was Christian or Jewish of Buddhist.....
(I suppose the last two don't call them "churches")
Which church are you letting her attend/learn about?
Because once they get into it they might not get out.

Personally I hope it's not a Catholic one.
Women are treated as second class and the systematic and protected widespread rape of children.....fun times....

Is there a nice normal Christian church that just teaches the lessons of Jesus but leaves all the crazy bigoted narrow minded arrogant stuff behind?

Unfortunately, HLT, what pretty much ALL of Christianity for two thousand years (arguably up to the present) insisted on is that Jesus didn't come to "teach lessons" but to die on the Cross. If true, then claims that those claimants (or their ideas) are crazy, bigoted, narrow-minded (a term that really needs to be unpacked) or arrogant is erroneous at best.

Lewis's trilemma, while debatable, really does close the door on the idea of Christ as a 'nice guy - teacher'.

I'm not going to debate that now, but I did think it needed to be put out there.

FF wrote: Uh... Kind of amazing that someone remembers that.

Pfft, I don't think so... but I do admit I have a smaller corpus of posts to call up memories from than most Watchers. I think I'mma gonna try to search up that thread and bump it in the Hall of Gifts.

Hey- you were saying one of your kids asked your wife about how to pray... is she religious?

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Is there a nice normal Christian church that just teaches the lessons of Jesus but leaves all the crazy bigoted narrow minded arrogant stuff behind?

And here's how I'd answer this:
Good luck... we humans all tend to be arrogant fools. (Though I'm not sure -WHICH- categories of bigoted / narrow-mindedness are on your radar; besides some of the obvious.)

I've been in a variety of different denominations, (because I've lived in a variety of different states/provinces, and choose based on things like "what seems like a healthy church near me"). Really I (personally) think it just has to do with what flavor(s) of narrow-minded arrogance one can bear! If someone like Fist's daughter can clearly see the flaws of the church she ends up in, but ALSO finds some good common ground & virtues she admires in the people... then maybe someday she'll be able to confront some of those flaws and do good...

But I shouldn't say we are ALL narrow-minded fools. Maybe you don't have your own narrow-minded tendencies. Or at least, I would say that if I didn't see that THOOLAH badge....

And what DO you do when the teachings of Jesus sound pretty... divisive?

Don't go preaching about Linden in my thread, lady!



No, my wife's not religious. She believes more than I do, but that's not difficult. She believes something is going on, even if she isn't sure what. But I guess she's mentioned it now and then, or my daughter wouldn't have talked to her about it?

Lina Heartlistener wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Is there a nice normal Christian church that just teaches the lessons of Jesus but leaves all the crazy bigoted narrow minded arrogant stuff behind?

And here's how I'd answer this:
Good luck... we humans all tend to be arrogant fools. (Though I'm not sure -WHICH- categories of bigoted / narrow-mindedness are on your radar; besides some of the obvious.)

Just homosexuality and women equality this week. And, since it's the one I know best, Catholic.

Lina Heartlistener wrote:I've been in a variety of different denominations, (because I've lived in a variety of different states/provinces, and choose based on things like "what seems like a healthy church near me"). Really I (personally) think it just has to do with what flavor(s) of narrow-minded arrogance one can bear! If someone like Fist's daughter can clearly see the flaws of the church she ends up in, but ALSO finds some good common ground & virtues she admires in the people... then maybe someday she'll be able to confront some of those flaws and do good...

I disagree.
There's a certain psychology or mind control behind most churches.
Guilt/forgiveness/money/power.
His daughter is young too.
She'll be more susceptible.

I know this, believe me.
My own daughter is 11.
Her mother raised her Catholic and I went along with it thinking I'd provide a balance of science and reason.
I wanted her to have a security blanket with the whole Heaven thing and that's played out well. It's a good psychological comfort trick when there's a death. I like that even for myself.

But man, do I get pissed when we're talking about something like evolution or plate tectonics and she'll say something like "God made it that way". (now she does it just to tease me)
My head almost explodes. arrgggh.
I tell her that that type of thinking was acceptable when they thought the Earth was flat and slavery was ok.

Lina Heartlistener wrote: But I shouldn't say we are ALL narrow-minded fools. Maybe you don't have your own narrow-minded tendencies. Or at least, I would say that if I didn't see that THOOLAH badge....

Yeah, whatever. Linden lover.....

Lina Heartlistener wrote:And what DO you do when the teachings of Jesus sound pretty... divisive?

Maybe I've never looked at it to closely then. Honestly, no sarcasm. I always thought it was about humility, forgiveness, peace and the occasional ass kicking when necessary. That's what I teach my kids regarding religion and Jesus.

rusmeister wrote:
Unfortunately, HLT, what pretty much ALL of Christianity for two thousand years (arguably up to the present) insisted on is that Jesus didn't come to "teach lessons" but to die on the Cross.

Wow.
You want to reword that?
Or do you really think that Jesus' dying on the cross wasn't his greatest lesson of all?

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Lina Heartlistener wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Is there a nice normal Christian church that just teaches the lessons of Jesus but leaves all the crazy bigoted narrow minded arrogant stuff behind?

And here's how I'd answer this:
Good luck... we humans all tend to be arrogant fools. (Though I'm not sure -WHICH- categories of bigoted / narrow-mindedness are on your radar; besides some of the obvious.)

Just homosexuality and women equality this week. And, since it's the one I know best, Catholic.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:I've been in a variety of different denominations, (because I've lived in a variety of different states/provinces, and choose based on things like "what seems like a healthy church near me"). Really I (personally) think it just has to do with what flavor(s) of narrow-minded arrogance one can bear! If someone like Fist's daughter can clearly see the flaws of the church she ends up in, but ALSO finds some good common ground & virtues she admires in the people... then maybe someday she'll be able to confront some of those flaws and do good...

I disagree.
There's a certain psychology or mind control behind most churches.
Guilt/forgiveness/money/power.
His daughter is young too.
She'll be more susceptible.

I know this, believe me.
My own daughter is 11.
Her mother raised her Catholic and I went along with it thinking I'd provide a balance of science and reason.
I wanted her to have a security blanket with the whole Heaven thing and that's played out well. It's a good psychological comfort trick when there's a death. I like that even for myself.

But man, do I get pissed when we're talking about something like evolution or plate tectonics and she'll say something like "God made it that way". (now she does it just to tease me)
My head almost explodes. arrgggh.
I tell her that that type of thinking was acceptable when they thought the Earth was flat and slavery was ok.

Lina Heartlistener wrote: But I shouldn't say we are ALL narrow-minded fools. Maybe you don't have your own narrow-minded tendencies. Or at least, I would say that if I didn't see that THOOLAH badge....

Yeah, whatever. Linden lover.....

Lina Heartlistener wrote:And what DO you do when the teachings of Jesus sound pretty... divisive?

Maybe I've never looked at it to closely then. Honestly, no sarcasm. I always thought it was about humility, forgiveness, peace and the occasional ass kicking when necessary. That's what I teach my kids regarding religion and Jesus.

Trying to think how to respond to this without miscommunicating or offending...

When you say 'there is a certain psychology' I quite agree. The same goes for public schools or any other institution. It's like saying that they have a certain philosophy. All institutions and individuals have one.

When you say "mind control', though, I could not disagree more. Anyone familiar with freely chosen faith, that one is free to abandon at any time, knows that there is no 'mind control', especially when the doctrine of free will is so important. I think you certainly could make a case regarding televangelists, and I would support you and agree. But as soon as you start talking about either the Baptists that I left, or the Orthodoxy I have found, I have to tell you that power/money etc is N/A. Guilt? When we can see that we are genuinely guilty, then wouldn't you agree that the guilt is appropriate, and the person who felt none - if they had ruined another's life, for example - would be a monster, something less than human. Forgiveness? Thank God! When genuine and deserved guilt is perceived, then forgiveness - being able to receive and learning to give it yourself - is a wonderful thing.

I'd agree that people thought that a god or gods made things the way they are throughout history. I'd point out that slavery gradually disappeared when Christianity came to dominate, and was never held as "OK" - it was the Christian atmosphere of equality that both made slavery eventually impossible and allowed us to have these notions of equality we walk around with today.

On psychological security blankets, I think the very fact that we have foreknowledge of our own deaths and suffering from it is indicative of something - above all those are hints that death is NOT natural for us. Point is, you can get very sophisticated reasoning to suggest that our psychological objection to a meaningless and final death is rational and not at all a mere hiding from unpleasant truths.

Your last comment is the most significant, though. People who DO examine the various sayings of Jesus more closely are very quickly struck with the many facts of those sayings -precisely that it was not merely about love and peace, that he did say that He came to bring a sword, and that parents would be divided from their children and brother from brother. That in the one culture on earth where they had a very definite idea of a monotheistic God who was decidedly not human, He went around saying that he WAS that God The monstrosity of telling people that you forgive them their sins against 3rd parties is rarely apprehended. How about if your wife cheats on you and I walk up and say, "That's all right. I forgive her." He acted as if He was the party chiefly offended. What He said was precisely NOT what a first century Galilean would have said. They were things completely outside of time and space - and relevant to all times and places. Anyway, I'm just trying to say that it would be good to really familiarize yourself with the broad range of Christ's statements in clear context before forming an opinion on them. You might come to understand us just a little bit better!

Oh, yeah, and don't listen to Lina on THOOLAH. I think it's fine to discriminate if you have thought about it and determined that Linden ought to be discriminated against...

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

rusmeister wrote:
Unfortunately, HLT, what pretty much ALL of Christianity for two thousand years (arguably up to the present) insisted on is that Jesus didn't come to "teach lessons" but to die on the Cross.

Wow.
You want to reword that?
Or do you really think that Jesus' dying on the cross wasn't his greatest lesson of all?

Well, for Christians it is. We are to take up our cross and follow Him. Whatever the situation in our lives, the things that make it less-than-ideal or even torturous is our cross. The wife who you can hardly stand. Constant unemployment. A child with retarded development. And turn from complaining about how unfair life is to learning to say 'Glory to God for all things!" So in a sense, yes, it is the greatest lesson, but it's not one everyone can take in. And the death on the Cross has a meaning that transcends lessons, which was what I really meant in my previous post.

here is a really cool podcast on the topic (with transcript if you simply can't listen - but you lose something without the audio):
ancientfaith.com/podcasts/stevethebuilder/in_the_company_of_sinners

Lutheran

Fist and Faith wrote:Lutheran

it's all about grace... A beautiful way for Shaina to learn of Jesus.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. ~JESUS in John 10:29-30

Fire Daughter wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:Lutheran

it's all about grace... A beautiful way for Shaina to learn of Jesus.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. ~JESUS in John 10:29-30

Agreed. Among Protestants, I'd say that the best ones - the ones closest to historical tradition and so to what believers believed 300, 600 and 1,500 years ago, would be traditional Lutheran and Anglican.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:I disagree.
There's a certain psychology or mind control behind most churches.
Guilt/forgiveness/money/power.
His daughter is young too.
She'll be more susceptible.

I know this, believe me.
My own daughter is 11.
Her mother raised her Catholic and I went along with it thinking I'd provide a balance of science and reason.
I wanted her to have a security blanket with the whole Heaven thing and that's played out well. It's a good psychological comfort trick when there's a death. I like that even for myself.

Say what you really mean, man! You don't need to hold back here, HLT!

Though, seriously- it sounds like you've laid some things that are really strong convictions of yours out there. And I appreciate that, even if some of what you say touches on realities that are uncomfortable for me to hear.

Also, I think the issues you've raised here are of enormous importance, and you cut to the heart of whether Christian practice shows a true spirituality. It opens up the question: "Is this a faith of God or of men?" And, even if you were to grant me that God DOES exist, would He want to have any association with people like that?

Honestly, the larger "Christian church" - which I consider myself to be part of - has failed inexcusably in many times and places on these critical issues.

I'mma gonna try to take some time to respond to this... I could work on tackling your points for a YEAR and still only have scratched the surface!

High Lord Tolkien wrote:But man, do I get pissed when we're talking about something like evolution or plate tectonics and she'll say something like "God made it that way". (now she does it just to tease me)
My head almost explodes. arrgggh.
I tell her that that type of thinking was acceptable when they thought the Earth was flat and slavery was ok.

Perhaps you sense intellectual laziness masquerading as presumptuous wisdom...? And maybe you're just a wee bit bothered by the way people have often used this approach to repress others' investigation of the universe?

Jumping in here kind of late in the game but: Just do her a big favor, and check out the children's program at the church before dropping her off. I say this because I was about 8 when I asked if I could go to Sunday School. My parents took me to the Big Old School Church in town (established in the 1600's) and all I remember was the teachers chewing out the kids for not remembering their offering, and a little Noah and Moses in there for good measure... baw-ring. I quickly lost interest and they were happy not to have to lose their Sunday am sleep-in.

There are good programs where the teachers really love the kids, they teach substance, they sing and play and generally show the joy of the Lord. That's probably what your daughter is after anyway-- a sense of wanting to know God and be part of something joyful and meaningful.

Thanks. It sounds good, so far. She said she had fun, and wants to keep going. I imagine it'll be easier since she doesn't have to be going. It was entirely her idea, and (I'll keep reminding her that) she can stop whenever she wants. And I'll ask how it's going, and what kinds of stuff they do and talk about.

I was thinking about this for a bit. A lot of reasonable people say that they will stay out of the decisions that their children make about religion, and simply provide information so that they can make a choice. I used to feel this way, but now I'm not so sure. If you try to take a hands off approach, I guarantee the rest of society isn't going to.
I think if I have a child I will raise them actively as an atheist, and deflect conversion attempts through an active participation in the local unitarian congregation. That way, there will not be a point where the child has not been exposed to a supportive church community, so there won't be the same kind of curiosity that I hear from people who were raised atheist that are later drawn into a church. There are a ton of community functions/clubs/etc, the services are nice, and there isn't anything that I find objectionable about the sermons.
On a side note, I went to the 'Atheist/Humanist Club' at the church and there were a bunch of older men and women who had been atheists for decades talking about whatever came up. Being able to draw on the cumulative experiences of a socially active atheist community was pretty great.
On the other hand, I'm sure you are raising some mentally hardy kids that aren't going to get socially pressured into a religion so they can be cool in school. I remember when *I* was a kid all you had to have was a GameBoy and a Starter jacket to be cool, but my niece and nephew have both been approached by some evangelical kids to go to "pizza parties" at the local fundamentalist church.

If I thought "There is no god/God/creator" was a fact, I might actively raise them as atheists. But I don't think that. I only don't have reason to believe there is a god/God/creator. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe my 8 year old already knows something I don't. She's not asking to go because of the social aspect, or because of peer pressure. She's asking to go because she wants to learn about God. It's possible that I would not try to take her happiness away from her even if I knew it was achieved through falsehood. Not knowing it is falsehood, I wouldn't dream of trying to take it from her.

Of course you are right. I just get antsy about children and religion. I didn't mean to come off as critical. I had an experience when I was 10 where I went to a movie night at a church across the street after being invited, where we watched a video about how the dinosaurs were fakes that god put in the ground to test our faith. I asked the youth group leader about evolution, and what happens if you believe in it (both my parents) and they told me some kind of awful stuff.
I don't know the first thing about raising a child but I've been thinking about it -a lot- lately.

Not to worry. I didn't think you were being critical. Religion is a pretty seriously complex topic. Raising children is a pretty seriously complex topic. Put the two together, and....

The Lovely Wife informed my kids at one point that young children are innocent, but when they turn six, evil springs up in them. Or something like that. I had a *very* interesting talk with the kids about it.

aliantha wrote:The Lovely Wife informed my kids at one point that young children are innocent, but when they turn six, evil springs up in them. Or something like that. I had a *very* interesting talk with the kids about it.

This woman sounds the mother in Carrie.