Kevin's Watch

Yes, He Is Risen.

Dukka, have you been reading my posts?

Cameraman Jenn wrote:Dukka, have you been reading my posts?

*shakes head and blinks* Nope, it's still there. Gotta say, you lost me, Jenn.

This is the quote from another thread:

Cameraman Jenn wrote:If today is the anniversary of the day that Jesus rose from the dead, doesn't that make it zombie day?

But no, I didn't realize you had said this, Jenn. I just thought everybody knew that Mr. of-Nazareth was at least the second zombie mentioned in the NT (with Lazarus coming before him)...
dw

Fist and Faith wrote:

Cameraman Jenn wrote:Dukka, have you been reading my posts?

*shakes head and blinks* Nope, it's still there. Gotta say, you lost me, Jenn.

If you'd stumble out of the Close and into GenDisc once in awhile...

You could have at least lied to me DW and pretended you care about what I post...

RUS! Do NOT read this spoiler under ANY circumstance...

Spoiler

Zombie Jesus eats the brains of children... all the children of the world.... I know, totally offensive. Told you NOT to read it RUS!

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:Yes, Happy Zombie Jesus Celebration everybody!

Since people are getting carried away by zombies, I'll say that Lazarus and Christ were both truly resurrected - not as walking dead, but as walking living men. So no zombies here.

Christ is risen!!!

My Priest likes to throw out "Christ is Risen... Indeed he is Risen!" in various languages throughout the Paschal season. My favorite is "Texan", "Christ is up!... Yup!"

rusmeister wrote:

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:Yes, Happy Zombie Jesus Celebration everybody!

Since people are getting carried away by zombies, I'll say that Lazarus and Christ were both truly resurrected - not as walking dead, but as walking living men. So no zombies here.

Christ is risen!!!

Killjoy.

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:

rusmeister wrote:

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:Yes, Happy Zombie Jesus Celebration everybody!

Since people are getting carried away by zombies, I'll say that Lazarus and Christ were both truly resurrected - not as walking dead, but as walking living men. So no zombies here.

Christ is risen!!!

Killjoy.

Quite the contrary. That death no longer has a permanent hold over us is a genuine cause for joy. That we can, via repentance, turn our lives around and accept salvation from permanent death is bona fide optimism, and the rejection of it - pessimistic.

Christ is risen!!!

See? You made my point.

Though, to be fair, this *is* the Close. Fun is not expected.

Life is far too important to be taken seriously .

rusmeister wrote:Can Orthodox prayer deal with clinical depression? I certainly think so. If someone is suffering from it and their methods aren't working, it certainly can't hurt to try (although the effort would have to be sustained and sincere).

I often have trouble with that last one in my own prayer life. (or I fancy I do and then begin to- perhaps that started as an evasion of praying)

So, I wanna know... does the Orthodox tradition emphasize the things Jesus and the apostles said about the "standard" for sincere prayer and worship?

rusmeister wrote:Hoping to be better understood, even while being rejected...

Orthodox prayer is a wonderful thing for dealing with depression, something that frequently hits me in this often grey, dark and cold part of the world that is not my homeland. The main thing about feelings is that they come and go, most importantly, regarding depression, that they DO go (even when they are frequent fliers). The prayers, first composed along the lines of the Lord's Prayer (Our Father) help us put what SHOULD be first in our lives, not what 'seems' to us (since our perception is often very poor), but based on what actually IS the case.

Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory, now and
for ever and unto the ages of ages, Amen.

If I were to try to give a 30-second version for dummies (of whom I am first) on that prayer, I would say that it starts by putting first things first.
God, and worship of God, and a desire for His Kingdom. (Note: "Kingdom", not "Republic", "Empire", etc)

The daily bread reference is both eucharistic and refers to daily needs (note: NEEDS, not "desires". Anyone have children telling them they NEED a cookie?

And forgiveness of others. If we can't forgive others who have screwed us, we can't hope to be forgiven ourselves. I see the violence in the Middle East as a case in point, as it is so based on a lack of forgiveness. (Not that I'm a pacifist - the Christian view is dual, as I tried to explain to Ali above)

And to not be distracted by the things of this life (temptation) from what's REALLY important.

And to acknowledge who the Lord and Master of our life really is, and put it into the perspective not only of the present, but of eternity.

It'll tend to make the things that depress us smaller, if it is 'grokked'. That was a model, given by Christ, on which prayers from prayer books are modeled. There are many others, but that is the model par excellence.

Or, as Tolkien put it in "The Hobbit":

Gandalf wrote:You are a very fine person, and I am very fond of you, but you are only quite a small fellow in a wide world, after all.

I LOVE the Lord's Prayer, and YES... it is so much more meaningful - and USEFUL - when you'e studied an interpretation like you provided / when you'e really thought about what it's supposed to mean.

BTW... when I hear the Lord's prayer prayed in a congregation... if they use the "trespasses" version... I think of a word SRD uses a lot in communal contexts in the Land - "suserration." ...when I hear all those "s" sounds, murmured by a large group of ppl. I actually suspect that's where he gets it from. (Maybe I should ask that on the GI!)

Well, I'm behind on my promise to play w/ my kid, so... GTG!

Well, "debt" has its uses as a translation, too, but I think it less accurate to the meaning, which deals above all with amartia (sin - missing the mark; failing)

On your question - I think the big shocker for people from Western Protestant tradition is discovering just how scripturally based we are. So yes, absolutely. What Jesus said, what the apostles said, what the Church fathers said (with the whole 'call no man father' thing in mind), and it's all pretty harmonic. It synthesizes, where all I saw in the West was dichotomy. "Faith vs works" etc etc.

I guess the thing I'd reiterate to the audience at large is "Come and see!" The Western person who discovers Orthodoxy is nearly ALWAYS surprised, probably even if they initially go just to debunk.

All of the prayers are about what we OUGHT to be praying for. Spontaneous prayer is fine - but it ought to be spontaneous. A prayer rule means disciplining yourself, when maybe nothing is in your head. So putting the right things IN your head - so that it doesn't matter whether you are a genius theologian (as we understand the idea) or a general idiot, if you are saying
"Oh Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who are everywhere and fill all things, come and abide in us and cleanse us from every impurity, and save our souls, oh Good One" you are doing well.
(Doubly so in my opinion if you are standing and crossing yourself and bowing (it's something you learn, although worship is quite formal, not everyone does everything exactly the same at all times, and no one worries about what others are doing - our attention is on the altar and the icons, especially of the Lord (for me it's the Pantocrator) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spas_vsederzhitel_sinay.jpg
(I like the one in my church better, but internet beggars can't be choosers)

But if you're not disciplined, then no advice or way will help. First you have to, well, discipline yourself - and I have many shortcomings in this as well. At least I know what I need to do...

rusmeister wrote:So yes, absolutely. What Jesus said, what the apostles said, what the Church fathers said... and it's all pretty harmonic.

Alright, alright... so, as interviewers say, "Be specific." Tell me what some of the major scriptures the Orthodox tradition points out affect the sincerity of ones prayers are. (I'm sure they're balanced by assurances like in Luke 11, and Romans 8, and all.)

Basically, what are some of the major scriptures that you use as tools to actually guide your spiritual disciplines of "heart evaluation"?

rusmeister wrote:...although worship is quite formal, not everyone does everything exactly the same at all times, and no one worries about what others are doing...

Now THAT last bit is a communal discipline I can wholeheartedly applaud.

Linna Heartlistener wrote:

rusmeister wrote:So yes, absolutely. What Jesus said, what the apostles said, what the Church fathers said... and it's all pretty harmonic.

Alright, alright... so, as interviewers say, "Be specific." Tell me what some of the major scriptures the Orthodox tradition points out affect the sincerity of ones prayers are. (I'm sure they're balanced by assurances like in Luke 11, and Romans 8, and all.)

Basically, what are some of the major scriptures that you use as tools to actually guide your spiritual disciplines of "heart evaluation"?

rusmeister wrote:...although worship is quite formal, not everyone does everything exactly the same at all times, and no one worries about what others are doing...

Now THAT last bit is a communal discipline I can wholeheartedly applaud.

Well, the prayers are so thoroughly imbued with Scripture that we don't even think of them in terms of "tools" as a rule. To acquire the mind of the Church one has to accept its prayers, and make them ones own. When I say the Eucharistic prayer, for example,

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen.
Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of Thy Mystery to Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss; but like the thief will I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord in Thy Kingdom.
May the communion of Thy Holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body. Amen.

Now I could go down blow-by-blow and show that a great deal of this is actually said in Scripture, but with you I would hope that I don't need to. But for example, when I say that I am the first (alt. "chief") of sinners, I am not merely saying something that the apostle Paul said 2,000 years ago; I am making it my own, and learning to see it as true about me.
So my evaluation of my heart and sincerity (as I understand your question) is taking what the prayer says seriously, and as very much about me (all the more that I am reading it in the first person). And this goes for all of them. You could peruse the prayers - some of them are probably still found even in the Anglican BCP (Book of Common Prayer); 100 years ago there was serious rapprochement between the Anglican and Orthodox Churches, which was pretty much sunk when they began considering the ordination of women, never mind homosexuals. Just look up the Society of St Alban and St Sergius. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellowship_of_Saint_Alban_and_Saint_Sergius

But anyway, the contention will be that the Christian who prays these prayers IS a theologian, both in theory and in practice. Having the right theology, grounded by repeating it all the time, and seeing a genuine mirror of one's soul are benefits of Orthodox prayer.
Here is a good cross-section for the inquirer:
www.oca.org/OCSelect.asp?SID=2
Here's one of my favorites:
www.oca.org/OCSelect-Prayer.asp?SID=2&n ... %20Prayers

The bodily actions are learned. When it says "let us fall down" we usually do a prostration (First cross yourself, Thumb, fore and middle fingers (symbolizing the Holy Trinity) together, the other two folded against the palm (the two natures of Christ) and unhastily touch the forehead, belly, right shoulder and left shoulder in order, then get down on your knees, head touches the floor, and then stand up!. We cross ourselves (without prostration) whenever the Trinity is invoked, or whenever we say "Lord have mercy!" so we're kept pretty busy during the Liturgy and during prayers in general!

As lewis said, what the body does affects the soul. So we try not to pray seated unless we have to, and we try to learn to pray without ceasing.

Did you watch that special on Mt Athos I posted here? There's a point where the monk says to the '60 Minutes' interviewer that he finds it funny that the interviewer could think that he is not praying even while being interviewed. Of course, spontaneous words to God are also welcome, but are not formally done as part of common prayer and worship. If you don't know what to say then the Jesus prayer is the perfect thing - and it puts us in the right relationship to God: "Lord Jesus Christ, (Thou) Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner!" and repeat as often as you like. The Hesychasts en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm make this the center of their prayer life (although most of us are not in their league).

I don't know if you're looking for anything "personal" that I make up - it's pretty un-Orthodox to make your own stuff up in common practice, but there can be little practices that we come up with ourselves that are in line with orthodox tradition. For example, at my church, we don't have icons of most of the namesakes in my family. So when I pray for them (and this is a personal revelation), I "buddy" them with another saint whose icon IS present, and address both saints in asking for additional prayers for my family.

But the bottom line is that the prayers, heavily founded on Scripture, are the means by which we learn how to devote ourselves to God. Scripture, of course, is not the whole of Orthodox Tradition, but it is the most important part of it.

Yeah... I guess what I am asking is... given that:

• 1. a worldview that integrates the thoughts about the sinful nature of humanity expressed in say... Jeremiah 17:9, and
  2. as you've said before, believers are just "redeemed sinners"

...how does an Orthodox believer "keep watch" that he or she isn't falling into a habit of repeating a prayer insincerely or unworthily?

For me, I have some major scriptures that guide me and test me on a regular basis (and as I study the Bible, I aim to integrate as much of what I know of it as possible) :

Jesus wrote:Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Jesus wrote:...sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward...

...but you... do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing...

John, of 'The Gospel of John' wrote:If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

And then there's things like 1 Peter 3:1-8, though I guess you don't need to worry about verses 1-6 and I don't have to worry about verse 7!

I guess what I'm asking is this: People were talking on another thread about whether different belief systems and plans of action actually "work" for someone. For the purposes of THIS discussion, why don't we just hijack the language of "does it work?" to mean what God is saying to people who would follow Him with tests like the examples I gave above?

I mean, I think the definition of "Does it work?" for the Christian would be roughly equivalent to, "Does it put me on a track of ever-increasing humility, wisdom, love for God evidenced by an increase in 'agape' love for my neighbor & un-self-seeking charitable treatment of the same"?


And yeah, I see a lot of the scriptures interwoven in those prayers.

rus wrote:...but like the thief will I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord in Thy Kingdom.

I really like that one!

Linna Heartlistener wrote:Yeah... I guess what I am asking is... given that:

• 1. a worldview that integrates the thoughts about the sinful nature of humanity expressed in say... Jeremiah 17:9, and
  2. as you've said before, believers are just "redeemed sinners"

...how does an Orthodox believer "keep watch" that he or she isn't falling into a habit of repeating a prayer insincerely or unworthily?

Hi Linna!
I think I said it, perhaps in a more long-winded way (what is called 'long-windedness' is a thing which I have come to realize the value of in recent times), but in brief, I'll say again - to pray Orthodox prayer. To read the prayers, and make them your own. It's that simple. To say the I am the chief of sinners, to myself and to God, and to 'grok' that in a certain way, I really really am, that it is not an affectation but the truth. In my own case, one way I can think of in which I am objectively worse than others is that I know so much - yet still I sin. That

I stand before the doors of Thy sanctuary, yet I do not put away my terrible thoughts. But O Christ our God, Who didst justify the Publican and hadst mercy on the Canaanite woman, and didst open the gates of Paradise to the Thief, open to me the depths of Thy Love for men, and as I approach and touch Thee, receive me like the Harlot and the woman with an issue of blood. For the one received healing easily by touching the hem of Thy garment, and the other by clasping Thy sacred feet obtained release from her sins. And I, in my pitiableness, dare to receive Thy whole Body. Let me not be burnt, but receive me even as these; enlighten the senses of my soul, and burn the stains of my sins: through the intercessions of her who bore Thee without seed, and of the Heavenly Powers, for Thou art blessed unto ages of ages. Amen.

The Baptists I came from have knee-jerk reactions against the idea of people who have passed on being able to pray to God, and against the idea that we might ask them to pray for us, just as we might ask a friend in an e-mail to pray for us, but I'll say here that there are explanations that can satisfy the serious inquirer if they are patient long enough.
Anyway, yeah, if you've never been tempted, for example, to lust of the eyes while in church, and even right before Communion (why we are encouraged to dress modestly) then you might not get it. I mean, being practically face-to face with the real Presence (of Christ) and STILL being tempted to sin. A person can fall from any height. Satan fell from heaven.

The prayers guide us in that vigilance, in that constant reminder of what we really are like and what we need to do. If I just start talking to God ONLY about the things that I perceive, or happen to think about, or that worry me, then there's not much room for growth. It is being called outside of myself, remembering that the Lord said, "When you pray, pray like THIS" (not "Pray whatever comes into your head" or even "Pray THIS", but "pray like this". So Orthodox prayer is modeled on the model Christ gave to us.

Linna Heartlistener wrote:For me, I have some major scriptures that guide me and test me on a regular basis (and as I study the Bible, I aim to integrate as much of what I know of it as possible) :

Jesus wrote:Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Jesus wrote:...sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward...

...but you... do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing...

John, of 'The Gospel of John' wrote:If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

And then there's things like 1 Peter 3:1-8, though I guess you don't need to worry about verses 1-6 and I don't have to worry about verse 7!

On that last,
Although the thing I like focusing on most in that discussion is the other Scripture where men are told to love their wives as Christ loved the Church and sacrificed Himself for it. Feminists swoon when they see the 'wives obey your husbands' thing and totally miss the gravity of the injunction to husbands. Wives have it easy by comparison.

As for the rest, yes, all of that stuff is included in our prayers, teaching and worship. Absolutely. We even have a special week before Lent focused on the Pharisee and the Publican - and then the lesson - a complex one - is hammered in throughout Lent. I remember that as an ex-Baptist who didn't nelieve, I was perturbed by my wife's unwillingness to pray in the open. I figured "It's just me" and "I don't disrespect her beliefs". Now I get it. So we have family prayers, where we pray together, and private prayer, which is none of each other's business.

Linna Heartlistener wrote:I guess what I'm asking is this: People were talking on another thread about whether different belief systems and plans of action actually "work" for someone. For the purposes of THIS discussion, why don't we just hijack the language of "does it work?" to mean what God is saying to people who would follow Him with tests like the examples I gave above?

I mean, I think the definition of "Does it work?" for the Christian would be roughly equivalent to, "Does it put me on a track of ever-increasing humility, wisdom, love for God evidenced by an increase in 'agape' love for my neighbor & un-self-seeking charitable treatment of the same"?

Seems reasonable. I can go with it - as long as it's clearly defined - and that definition seems clear enough to me.


And yeah, I see a lot of the scriptures interwoven in those prayers.

Linna Heartlistener wrote:

rus wrote:...but like the thief will I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord in Thy Kingdom.

I really like that one!

Tell me about it. If you ever come to accept the idea of Real Presence, as I have, then it's the last "Yikes!" - the last thing I say before actually receiving. It's the grace of having a full dress rehearsal before dying and meeting my Maker face-to-face.