Kevin's Watch

LOL!!! And then Vain would have spoken to Covenant, non-stop, throughout the entire 2nd Chrons!

"Yeah, I'm gonna be the new Staff of Law! Isn't that cool? Isn't that cool? You know how I'm gonna do it? You wanna know? OK, I'll tell ya. First we have to go to Revelstone. You wanna go to Revelstone? I gotta get the heels of the old Staff. Remember? Remember? Bannor said he'd return them to Revelstone? Well he did! And I know where to find 'em! And I'll put one on my right hand, and one on my left foot. I know what you're thinkin', you're thinkin' they won't fit. Right? Right? That's what you're thinking, right? Well they will! You wanna know how? Huh? You wanna know?"

Fist and Faith wrote:LOL!!! And then Vain would have spoken to Covenant, non-stop, throughout the entire 2nd Chrons!

"Yeah, I'm gonna be the new Staff of Law! Isn't that cool? Isn't that cool? You know how I'm gonna do it? You wanna know? OK, I'll tell ya. First we have to go to Revelstone. You wanna go to Revelstone? I gotta get the heels of the old Staff. Remember? Remember? Bannor said he'd return them to Revelstone? Well he did! And I know where to find 'em! And I'll put one on my right hand, and one on my left foot. I know what you're thinkin', you're thinkin' they won't fit. Right? Right? That's what you're thinking, right? Well they will! You wanna know how? Huh? You wanna know?"

I JUST SPIT COFFEE EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then my work here is done!

Fist and Faith wrote:Covenant couldn't see, so he didn't know what to do with the wild magic. And it wouldn't work for Linden to say, "OK, now do X. Now do Y." With her sight, she just let the wild magic flow, and intuitively do what was needed.

Yeah but Linden shouldn't have even been able to any good stuff with the ring, because it was spaken earlier that TC was the white gold. What's the use of spaking that otherwise?

SRD : TC is the white gold.
Linden : Can I use the ring to fix the place up a bit?
SRD : Knock yourself out.
Linden : {grabs TC by heels, swing him round, and sweeps sunbane under verdant cerulean carpet}

Landwaster:

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Fist and Faith wrote:
Covenant couldn't see, so he didn't know what to do with the wild magic. And it wouldn't work for Linden to say, "OK, now do X. Now do Y." With her sight, she just let the wild magic flow, and intuitively do what was needed.


Yeah but Linden shouldn't have even been able to any good stuff with the ring, because it was spaken earlier that TC was the white gold. What's the use of spaking that otherwise?

That's because Mhoram was wrong.

Mhoram said Covenant was the white gold.

I think that whoever holds the white gold is the white gold.

Hile Troy used the wild magic.

Linden used the wild magic.

Foul used the wild magic.

The Kemper coveted the white gold and seemed to think that he could
use it.


The Creator told Covenant that to save the Land he had to risk his Enemy
getting his hands on wild magic would he could then use to assail the
Creator and the cosmos.

Since we never saw Covenant able to prevent anyone who had physical
possession of the ring-- or less in Linden's case-- from using the wild
magic, I'm inclined to think that Mhoram was either incorrect or his
words are being misinterpreted.

BUT ... what about Foul's use of the ring ... were not the quinseconces of that a statement about TC being the white gold?

Wow what a great bunch of replies.....I love to see such thought engendered by one guestion. I think first of all that Findail knew he was appointed to bear the weight of the world wether it was it's destruction or its healing.I think he knew Vain's purpose but perhaps he thought that he could avoid that end by obtaining the white gold or by getting into Linden's hands...what he forgot or chose to ignore was that even with Linden's use of white gold she needed the law reestablished to make her changes permanent,that's why Foul could make the sunbane in the first place it was a corruption of order due to lack of law.
Now on the subject of TC I think he was white gold himself and Mhoram was right on the money.Look what happened after TC died...he was able to absorb every blow sent out by Foul....even in death and without his ring he had white gold power.As for the others they could only use it as a tool or weapon but they were limited to their own knowledge or lore or passion,remember TC was the paradox...cold and passionate,mad and sane...etc

Actually Wonderer could be right on the money here. Linden's healing passion might have meant that she could use the white gold only for healing. TC, the white gold, might have been able to use it for everything it was good for. Linden when "posessing" TC could probably do that, too, but when she had the ring herself, all she could do was heal stuff.

Findal had it bad I won't argue with that... go figgure that you're gonna be turned into a STICK for eternity. The last Appointed got turned into a ROCK.
He knew what Vain was for and what he was supposed to do. That's why he kept trying

Spoiler

to destroy Vain

. So to try and get out of it.
If I were Covenant I'd use the wild magic every chance I could get simply because it drove Findal ape sh-- whenever he did. You know like

hey Findal! look it here! Using the wild magic dude! ZAP.. and over there! ZAP! Don't like it? Huh? ZAP! Too bad! ZAP - ZAP, whoops coming your way ZAAAP! Almost got ya that time! ZAP! Hey watch this Findal... zaaap... I just shaved off my beard again! Whoo hoo! Zaaap This wild magic stuff is COOL! .... Oh! want me to STOP? Well then TELL US WHAT THE HELL YOU KNOW!!!

Might've been one way to get the dude to fess up what he's been hiding...

KaosArcana wrote:Landwaster:

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Fist and Faith wrote:
Covenant couldn't see, so he didn't know what to do with the wild magic. And it wouldn't work for Linden to say, "OK, now do X. Now do Y." With her sight, she just let the wild magic flow, and intuitively do what was needed.


Yeah but Linden shouldn't have even been able to any good stuff with the ring, because it was spaken earlier that TC was the white gold. What's the use of spaking that otherwise?

That's because Mhoram was wrong.

Mhoram said Covenant was the white gold.

I think that whoever holds the white gold is the white gold.

Hile Troy used the wild magic.

Linden used the wild magic.

Foul used the wild magic.

The Kemper coveted the white gold and seemed to think that he could
use it.


The Creator told Covenant that to save the Land he had to risk his Enemy
getting his hands on wild magic would he could then use to assail the
Creator and the cosmos.

Since we never saw Covenant able to prevent anyone who had physical
possession of the ring-- or less in Linden's case-- from using the wild
magic, I'm inclined to think that Mhoram was either incorrect or his
words are being misinterpreted.

Kaos, I've been arguing this for weeks, and with 1 post you've more eloquently and simply said everything I've been trying to say. Bravo! I think we read too much into the statement that TC "is the white gold," when wild magic was used by several different characters throughout both chronicles. White gold is the articulating tool through which wild magic is manifested. Nothing more. Furls Fire is correct in saying that what Mhoram meant was that the ability to call up wild magic existed within the bearer, as a result of his/her expression of passion. TC says that he became an alloy after the Banefire caamora, a fusion of venom and wild magic. OK. He later says that wild magic can't be used against him. But it was, wasn't it? That wasn't a steak knife that LF drove through his heart - it was wild magic. The only thing TC was able to do after that was put himself b/w LF and the Arch and absorb the wild magic that LF was using - b/c he was wild magic/venom. But TC himself could never use that power himself again, b/c doing so would corrupt the AoT w/ LF's venom - an unthinkable prospect.

As to Linden only being able to use wild magic for healing, doesn't she tell TC at one point what she would be able to do if she had the white gold? I recall something about "rip Foul's heart out" or something like that. Fist - Furls - can you hook me up with a quote?

Thomas Covenant could be white gold, like Mhoram said, and still his ring was white gold, seperate from TC. Still, I just took it to mean that TC was merely contradictory, like WG.

Don't forget Covenant's final words. (Nearly final anyway. So far?:))

"And Foul didn't understand. Maybe he was too far gone. Or maybe he just refused to believe it. But he tried to ignore the paradox. The paradox of white gold. And the paradox of himself. He wanted the white gold- the ring. But I'm the white gold too. He couldn't change that by killing me. When he hit me with my own fire, he did the one thing I couldn't do for myself. He burned the venom away. After that, I was free."

Still a hot topic here..lol...who would have thought.
I am persuaded that Findail knew he was appointed to his doom and yet was not entirely convinced things needed to end the way they did.He was the appointed and had to bear that fate per the vote of the Elohim but if he could see a different path then I think he had the leeway to go for it.
Now as far as TC being white gold I think he diffinitely is...both living and dead,if we look throughout the chronicles we see that no one could call up the power that he could not even LF at the end.It's one thing to wield power it's entirely another to be power.If you recall in the first triolgy TC thoought he needed a catalyst to get the white gold going but when he was journeying the Atiran and the storm came against them he lashed out there was a flash of white lightening and the storm became less and more natural,Atiran was sure TC did it but he denied it not wanting to believe he had such power,after all that kind of power was too dangerous for a leper to have....he is the white gold and always was he just had to believe it.Even LF couldn't call up that kind of power without a catylist ie illearth stone.staff of law,corrupted earth power, he always needs something to get things going.

”I’m ready. Let’s get on with it.”

A bell rang across the eftmound – a clamor of appeal or protest. Now Linden was able to identify its source. It came from Findail.

-Infelice, consider! It is my life you hazard. If this path fails, I must bear the cost. Is there no other way?

“He was a peril to us. His dark makers spawned him for our harm. He was an offense to our Wurd, directed with great skill and malice to coerce us from our path. This we will never endure, just as we have not endured your anile desires. We have imprisoned him.”

Findail appeared to expect no response. He shifted his attention to Vain. His tone tightened. “To you I say, No.” He pointed rigidly at the center of Vain’s chest, and the muscles of his arm stood out like whipcord. “Whatever else you may do, or think to do, that I will not suffer. I am Appointed to this task, but in the name of no duty will I bear that doom.”

"I will do what I must. From the first, I have avowed that I will not suffer his purpose. The curse of Kastenessen will not impel me to that doom."

Findail, the tormented Elohim: Earthpower incarnate. Amoral, arrogant, and self-complete, capable of everything. Sent by his people to redeem the Earth at any cost. To obtain the ring for himself if he could. And if he could not, to pay the price of failure.

This price.

Findail certainly knew that the possibility was there, and possibly thought the odds of it happening were better than even. But he thought he could avoid it if he was able to get the ring. But the ur-viles wrought well, and Vain made it happen. Linden had the ring, and could make the Land well again without a new Staff. But without a new Staff, Foul might just mess it up again. Maybe if the Elohim had come up with something just as good, Vain would have seen that there was no need to fulfill his purpose.

*BUMP*

This may be off the subject a little but it seems to me that Linden did not need the white gold nor did she ever use it. She is the Sun Sage and with her health sense and the new Staff of Law was able to heal the land. She never used the white gold to either make the Staff nor heal the Land. She just took possession of the ring to keep Findail from it. But, having the ring does not make her the white gold wielder any more than it did Troy or Foul because they do not carry the paradox within them.

As far as TC being the white gold, I think he was. Even though others were able to weild it (Troy, for example) it was a borrowed power. TC gave the ring to Troy; TC gave the ring to Foul. The wild magic, however, was by rights his and his alone as the forestal says when TC gives the ring to Troy; the forestall stops Troy saying that Troy using the power of the ring is wrong. The only person who could usurp this power was LInden only because she could possess TC and through him wield the power.

Did that make sense or was that circular reasoning?

I totally agree...but your second pp has spun me into a vortex of utter confusion-- (which, considering how weird this day becoming, is a very ez thing to do )

Ok - here 'goes.

TC is the white gold because he carries the paradox within him. Troy doesn't and neither does Foul. Any other person using the white gold - whether it is given to them or not - should not use the white gold because it is, in a way, breaking the law of things. That is why the forestal stops Troy from using the white gold.

The wild magic is not just the ring. It is a gift - or a curse. It is as much a part of Thomas Covenant as his heart or lungs, or skin. Let me explain: as an example, some people have beautiful singing voices. For some reason, everything in thier body is made in such a way that when they sing, they sound beautiful. Now, all of us can sing - but not all of us sound good doing it. We all have the same equipment that enables us to sing but still, some of us fall short of the mark. It is the same with white gold power.

Make sense?

Much clearer--but remember that it was also his extremities that fused or solidified his gift of paradox-leprosy, sheer survival instincts, despair, loss...

danlo wrote:but remember that it was also his extremities that fused or solidified his gift of paradox-leprosy, sheer survival instincts, despair, loss...

All these things had cumulative--but at first unpredictable, unstable, and dangerous--effects right up until they were fused into alloy in

Spoiler

the metallurgical caamora of the Banefire

. Then, everything Covenant had been, done (including all his wrongdoings in the Land and their consequences) and endured became part of the white gold that he was

Spoiler

and would no longer "wield as though it were separable from himself.

An apotheosis of paradox and acceptance.