The Clash of Science and Unreason.

[Vraith]

Not all chiropractors believe or practice according to that theory, though. The one my wife sees occasionally, whom we met through our martial arts school, practices entirely on pragmatic, evidence-based bio-mechanics...and it does work for the things she goes for: stress, migraines, muscular and skeletal pain. And stress CAN cause other problems...we tend to pay way too much attention, comparatively, to the mental/lifestyle causes of stress and not enough to the bodily causes. That's really all I know about it.
The body, though, is full of little tricks that can cause/prevent trouble.
For instance most kinds of hernias are nearly impossible if you always keep your feet and knees in parallel while walking, running, and especially during weight/resistance workouts.
The mind, too...for instance strongly visualizing doing push-ups, while not as effective as actually doing them, does make you stronger.

[Zarathustra]

Not all chiropractors believe or practice according to that theory, though. The one my wife sees occasionally, whom we met through our martial arts school, practices entirely on pragmatic, evidence-based bio-mechanics...and it does work for the things she goes for: stress, migraines, muscular and skeletal pain.

That's a good point. In terms of getting a massage, it's effective in reducing pain or stress. But it can't treat the vast array of problems that it claims to treat. A chiropractor is basically a masseuse pretending to be a doctor.

[Edit: Actually, checking with my resident expert, I've given them too much credit here. A masseuse actually has *more* medical validity than a chiropractor. There is no professional medical society guidelines that recommend chiropractic treatment for migraines. This issue is specifically relevant to my wife, who has had chronic, severe migraines for years and researched the issue not only for her job, but with a particular personal interest. If your wife thinks it helps, it's likely placebo effect. It cannot cure or treat migraines.]

[Fist and Faith]

I haven't looked into these things, but I've never heard of chiropractors claiming to cure medical problems, diseases, malfunctioning organs, or anything. Just pain relief from messed up allignment.

I was always skeptical about it. A few weeks before my the wedding day of my first marriage, I woke up with a twinge in my neck. No big deal. Many of us have had them, and they go away after a day or two. I waited it out as it got worse for several days.

We all do things every day we're really not aware of. For example, say you're stopped at a red light. When it turns green, you start going forward. To a degree that you may never have noticed, your head stays in place as your body (and the rest of the car) goes forward. You have to use the muscles in your neck and move your head forward to keep it where it belongs over your body. It's really tiny stuff, and you do it without thinking about it or even noticing it. Unless whatever was wrong with my neck happens. It got to the point that, when I wasn't paying attention, and didn't have my head resting against the headrest to prevent it from going back - thereby preventing me from having to move it forward - I would reflexively make that tiny adjustment, and literally scream in pain.

Aspirin, ibuprofen, and acetominophen all failed to help absolutely. I decided to try a chiropractor, because there didn't seem to be any medical issue. Two weeks later, I went on the Runaway Train at Disney. I was very careful about keeping my head against the headrest, and supporting it with my hands. But my neck was feeling so much better that I knew it would be okay.

So I know, with absolute certainty, that chiropractors can, indeed, do at least that much.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Sorry, but I don't know a single fucking person that goes to a chiropractor for migraine relief or whatever bullshit snakeoil claims they are supposed to be selling. As someone with occasional back issues I can say unequivocally that a spinal adjustment by chiropractor is the only sure method I am aware of for episodic pain management and realignment. If you go to an MD all you get is take some Naproxen and call me in the morning, they can't do anything else. At least a chiropractor is willing to manipulate the joint that has become misaligned and locked up. If you've ever walked out of a chiropractor's office feeling two inches taller you know exactly what I mean. And no, a masseuse does not give equivalent treatment, although I do consider MFR massage to be an interesting massage therapy avenue with similarities to traditional chiropractic manipulation.

Bottom line: "tell it to my fucking back."

Edit: Just saw your post F&F, obviously could not agree more.

[Zarathustra]

Aspirin, ibuprofen, and acetominophen all failed to help absolutely. I decided to try a chiropractor, because there didn't seem to be any medical issue. Two weeks later, I went on the Runaway Train at Disney. I was very careful about keeping my head against the headrest, and supporting it with my hands. But my neck was feeling so much better that I knew it would be okay.

So I know, with absolute certainty, that chiropractors can, indeed, do at least that much.

Maybe people have similar stories about prayer, and are absolutely certain they cure them, too. Most back and neck pain get better on their own with time, because it's usually muscular (like a spasm). You can have nerve injuries or inflammation of the nerve, but that is absolutely never fixed by a chiropractor. While NSAIDS can help that, and it can also get better over time, you might need surgery if it won't go away.

Don, there is an entire regimen for intermittent back pain, and it's not "take a Naproxin and call me in the morning." INSAIDS are part of that, but only the first step. Next is light exercise and stretching, six weeks of conservative therapy, including walking (30 mins everyday), back exercises, strengthening your core, etc. If that doesn't work, next is physical therapy. If that doesn't work, you're referred to a neurologist. Most back pain should be resolved long before that.

There is no scientific evidence suggesting that chiropractic care helps back pain. This is anecdotal evidence and placebo effect. It can often make it worse, and doctors treat many patients who are injured from chiropractic care.

Back pain is caused by being out of shape or from injury. Not from "misalignment" of your spine. If you have actually have a misalignment of your spine, you absolutely need to go to a neurologist. This is a very serious condition which no chiropractor can fix.

[Edit: meditation and accupuncture actually have more evidence than chiropractic care. I'm not saying all alternative medicines are pseudo-science. Just this one.]

[Zarathustra]

There is no shortage of people with back pain. It would be extremely easy to find 1000s of people who would participate in such a *noninvasive* procedure like this, one which many people already believe to be perfectly safe (erroneously). It's not surgery. You don't have to take a drug. It's the easiest damn trial you could perform. It wouldn't even cost very much money to conduct such a study.

So why is there absolutely no credible published studies in professional medical journals that prove chiropractic care helps back pain?? Doesn't that tell you all something? If it actually worked, every doctor would either make this part of his practice himself, or refer you to one. They refer you to a physical therapist, not a chiropractor. Do you trust the opinion of the medical community, or not?

This is what I was talking about on the last page. When we don't stress objective standards and rationality in something like *medicine* even smart people are often deceived. (Dumb people even more often.) I hate to say it, but some of you are being sold on a fraud. The fact that so many smart people who are able to distinguish science from pseudo-science in other areas of their lives--but not in this one--just shows how maliciously deceptive it can be to blur this line, and how vitally important it is that we insist upon it being clear.

Now, I'm sure you can find "studies" in chiropractic journals. (You can also find testimonials for the efficacy of prayer at church.) Go ahead and research it if you want. Bring me some links, and we can take a look at it in detail. This isn't my area of expertise, but I'll see how much time Ki has to take a look at specific examples if you want.

[Vraith]

If your wife thinks it helps, it's likely placebo effect. It cannot cure or treat migraines.]

Or they're stress-induced, so preventable, which isn't the same as cure or treat, and which I think is likely, as she doesn't get them from the other common triggers. And they've become very rare now that she has a stable job with a career path in a field she loves so she wakes up looking forward to work instead of dreading it.
Which is good, cuz they're an awful thing to watch.

But it's interesting [and perhaps more connected with the OP] that you mention the placebo effect. Cuz many misinterpret it to mean "it isn't real." But that isn't so.
In one way it is always subjective...the person has to believe, for whatever reason, and the strength/certainty of the belief matters. Sometimes it is subjective "holistically"...the person feels better/thinks it is working but the biological data shows they aren't actually better. And sometimes it is real. The biological effects are demonstrable/measurable/objective.
And the reverse [disbelief/doubt] holds/has measurable outcomes as well.
I've probably mentioned before that faith/prayer can, objectively, help. Unfortunately for those who favor particular systems it doesn't matter which particular faith/god you believe in, or if you don't believe in any "god" except the power of positive thinking and visualization techniques.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Yeah, the ambulances stretch around the block at every working chiropractic office.

Z, I guess instant relief from pain via a specific therapy technique is simply 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' reasoning in your book (though as the question is inductive, post hoc reasoning assumes an altogether different character). I can tell you anecdotally that I've had episodic problems through the years related to back pain where a visit or two to the chiropractor relieved them for several years at a time. I don't care whether anyone considers that scientific or not; in fact suffering and discomfort are inherently subjective and therefore not falsifiable. But I think a survey of people that use chiropractors for episodic relief of back pain will indicate a high degree of satisfaction.

It just occurred to me that perhaps you've never experienced back pain, or at least the kind of back pain that people who go to chiropractors experience. You may not have the schemata to understand what is being described perhaps: it is not simply generalized unfocused discomfort related to being out-of-shape. For the moment I'll assume that you've had an appendage go out of joint at one time or another and experienced the pain and discomfort that existed in the joint until it managed to go back into socket. Believe me, the same exact event occurs in the spinal column also, you can often feel the displacement when it happens but usually it is a cumulative result of gradually increasing small displacements that are themselves aggravated by a growing scope of surrounding strains and spasms. Since the spine is the core of one's muscoskeletal system, quite clearly a minor displacement of one of its joints is going to trigger quite a severe response by the body trying to force it back into joint: swelling, inflammation, muscle spasms, etc. Let's just say that it can get quite ugly, and it is usually localized to a particular joint and its subsidiary muscoskeletal support network.

The typical medical response to a minor displacement is control the inflammation and hope it goes back into its natural position in time (though often it never fully does, or if it does only gradually). That is quite an easy prescription to give in cyberspace, but something else entirely when one is forced as a result to walk around in agony with one's hips displaced 6 inches to the side for weeks due to muscle spasms. If such a state of affairs can be remedied in a truncated time frame via an adjustment or two that places the out of socket joint back into socket and gives the muscles the opportunity to relax their spasms, what reasonable person would not be in favor of it. I don't need a study vetted by PhD's to tell me to take my hand off the stove; the burn and its subsequent absence is the only lesson required. If that is what passes for unscientific irrationality in your book, I think you need to reexamine your premises and your motives.

[Zarathustra]

Or they're stress-induced, so preventable, which isn't the same as cure or treat, and which I think is likely, as she doesn't get them from the other common triggers. And they've become very rare now that she has a stable job with a career path in a field she loves so she wakes up looking forward to work instead of dreading it.
Which is good, cuz they're an awful thing to watch.

But it's interesting [and perhaps more connected with the OP] that you mention the placebo effect. Cuz many misinterpret it to mean "it isn't real." But that isn't so.
In one way it is always subjective...the person has to believe, for whatever reason, and the strength/certainty of the belief matters. Sometimes it is subjective "holistically"...the person feels better/thinks it is working but the biological data shows they aren't actually better. And sometimes it is real. The biological effects are demonstrable/measurable/objective.
And the reverse [disbelief/doubt] holds/has measurable outcomes as well.
I've probably mentioned before that faith/prayer can, objectively, help. Unfortunately for those who favor particular systems it doesn't matter which particular faith/god you believe in, or if you don't believe in any "god" except the power of positive thinking and visualization techniques.

I agree completely. Placebo effect is very real, and the mind is a powerful weapon against many kinds of ailments. I'm glad you brought this up, because I wanted to address it after rereading the OP of this thread, but didn't want to triple-post.

U said that various effects can't be "explained away" with placebo effect. But that doesn't explain it away, it actually explains it. Or at least it accounts for it. If the placebo effect wasn't so strong--and real--scientists wouldn't have to eliminate it as a causal factor in one's improvement during a trial. They try to eliminate placebo effect (by including a group taking placebos) in order to see whether or not the perceived improvements for the tested drug or therapy are real, not whether the placebo effect is real. They already know the latter is real. What they want to do is eliminate that baseline of known positive effect and see if a tested drug or therapy produces effects above that baseline.

That's why I emphasize that meditation is efficacious.

I think a survey of people that use chiropractors for episodic relief of back pain will indicate a high degree of satisfaction.

They have journals for things like that. Someone should publish ...

If that is what passes for unscientific irrationality in your book, I think you need to reexamine your premises and your motives.

My premise and motives? What are they? Can you tell me? If the results you have found are real, and they are reproducable, then there should be no problem whatsoever proving in a study that this works. Is that too much to ask? What's wrong with that premise? How is that a questionable motive?

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Because I think your motive is to seem right rather than be right, at least in this instance.

[Zarathustra]

Don, so you think the entire professional medical community is in on it, too? Do they just want to be "right?" Doctors have no problem referring you to a physical therapist or a neurologist. They don't mind sharing the spotlight with someone who has a special skill. So what do you think they have against chiropractors? Why don't they refer you to one? Are their motives suspect, too?

There's no need to talk about motives, here. That's conspiracy theory territory.

Next time you have a back issue, I suggest an experiment: go to a doctor, have your back X ray-ed, then go to a chiropractor and let him "fix" it, then have the same previous doctor X ray it again and ask him if there is any alignment difference whatsoever. X rays are relatively cheap, compared to the money you could save down the road. Chiropractors seem to think they can show you your misalignment in an X ray. (This is often part of their sales technique.) If the problem is as severe are you say, there should be no problem whatsoever detecting it on an X ray. See for yourself.

[ussusimiel]

Wow, this thread has taken off! Good call Vraith

The discussion about chiropractic is great and if it deepens it will probably merit a thread of its own.

I'm hoist on my own petard here because I've had experience of chiropractic and I'd have to say that it's actually one of the few alternative therapies that I've tried and remain skeptical about. The wide-ranging claims that the chiropractor made for the therapy rang alarm bells for me. In my experience an effective treatment doesn't need to make any more claims than to treat you and let you decide for yourself whether it's effective or not. There was also a clear attempt being made to tie me into some long-term course of treatment that had nothing to do with why I had come in the first place; a kind of soft hard-sell.

It has been my experience that experienced alternative therapists regularly refer on their clients to other therapists that they trust, I have been referred on many times and no one has ever even mentioned chiropractic. In fact, when I think of alternative therapies now I generally do not include chiropractic.

In saying that, I do think that the stories related above by Fist and Don have obvious truth in them. I do not put the healing experienced down to either time or the placebo effect. Apart from the manipulations of the chiropractor, what is also included in choosing to go is a recognition that what is needed cannot be provided by the usual routes, this is a powerful 'opening up' that our bodies repond to. It is a form of 'listening' that rational thinking is not good for. The very act of going outside the conventional methods can be a signal to the body that it has been heard. While this may seem similar to the placebo effect it is, IMO, something of a quite different order.

Placebo effect is very real, and the mind is a powerful weapon against many kinds of ailments.

I do not rule out the power of the placebo effect. I recognise its power (and often wonder why conventional medicine does not use it more effectively ), however, I object strongly to the blanket manner in which it is often used to dismiss the effects of alternative therapies. In the case of Fist and Don's stories I do not think that the placebo effect is in play. The strength of their self-awareness is proof enough for me that they are not credulous people. I trust them to interrogate themselves rigourously and to know whether what they experienced was a true effect or one stimulated by belief or wishful thinking. Again, this is one of the things to which I object in science and medicine, the denial of the experience of obviously rational people. For me, the fact that a person's experience cannot be objectively validated does not mean that that person's experience is not true.

u.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

After the automobile accident, my wife was referred to a chiropractor by her physician. I suppose I need to inform my wife that her physician is a quack. *shrug*

I don't believe in chiropractic care, either, but I am not going to tell my wife that the improvements in her back and neck are only in her mind. Anecdotal, to be certain, but this is all I am going to say on the subject.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Not contradicting one's wife is the beginning of wisdom, Hashi. And Zarathustra.

Since the door has been opened to what I think rather than the inverse of what I have falsified empirically, I'd suppose that the medical establishment is utilizing criteria for treatment that cannot hope to encompass all beneficial therapies, even conceptually. Medical treatments are not simply restricted by the principles of experimental science (themselves incapable of answering all inquiries), there are also additional layers of ethical restrictions, i.e., "do no harm," that require an additional burden of proof. Then there are also perceived liability reasons, not to mention motives related to cognitive dissonance, schemata preservation, and general chauvinism towards any method not originating with mainstream medical science. I suppose studies and surveys are possible if they were interested in altering their paradigm rather than perpetuating it. But I certainly don't take their word as definitive, nor am I competent to comment on the current state of the science. The pain relieving benefits of particular kinds of chiropractic care might be scientifically established, for all I know.

In any case, none of that is required for my edification, as my own subjective experience cannot be falsified. My spine goes out of alignment, I suffer for a while with associated symptomology, the chiropractor puts the joint back in socket, and I experience complete relief beginning from instantly to 24 hours afterwards.

[Vraith]

I wonder how much of this is the longing for "wonder-drugs" and/or "cure-alls" and lying/profiting folk taking advantage of that. I mean...the vitamin supplement thing.
So many claims, so much evidence pro/con. Why do people insist on expanding/generalizing beyond?
C is necessary and important. But it doesn't stop colds.
B complex can treat depression/guilt/low-energy, some other things...but only if you are deficient, and different folk have different needs/standards of deficiency, metabolizing, and supply. And those things aren't solely caused by B deficiency.
Controlled breathing exercises and various meditations work for a truly astounding array of purposes...and the more you hate doing it, the greater the benefits if you do it, correctly, despite hating it. But it won't make you immortal or super-human/natural.
A large number of herbs will treat anxiety and a number of other things...but they mostly won't cure/solve the problem. Sometimes treating is all you can do, but one should damn well find out if their particular case has a known curable cause or not.
Cinnamon has lots of benefits, but BY ITSELF won't do much.
There is a fair amount of evidence...but not much critical/opposing work has come out yet...that eating 1/2 a clove of raw garlic twice a day has numerous and large benefits. [screw the scentless supplements...the stuff that makes it stink is the stuff that makes it work]
I could go on about this for pages and pages playing both sides, in a way.

[Avatar]

Placebo effect is very real, and the mind is a powerful weapon against many kinds of ailments.

Just because it's in your head, doesn't mean it isn't real. I believe that. And I believe it applies to a lot more things than medical ones.

--A

[sgt.null]

i believe that narcotics and tequila can cure just about anything.

[ussusimiel]

There were interesting points in an earlier post by Z that I wanted to address, but the chiropractic discussion got hot and heavy before I got a chance

There is great harm in believing in the supernatural. The inability to distinguish pseudo-science from science leads to:

* Trying to teach creationism in science class
* Wasting money on things like chiropractors
* Distrusting doctors/scientists
* Distrusting reason
* Cease questioning reality
* Cease questioning authority (especially religious authority)
* Submission to questionable morality (e.g. stoning gays, mutilating girls)
* Subjugation of other humans based on mythical mandates
* Dogmatic entrenchment that comes from no longer questioning, making everything on this list easier to perpetuate and harder to stop or overcome.

Much of this is inarguable if supernatural = God, however, I have a lot of problems with it if a broader meaning is intended. I believe in the 'supernatural' yet most of the things on the list do not apply to me. It may come down to a matter of semantics, but, for me, allowing the possibility of the 'supernatural' is exactly what allows me to broaden my questioning of reality without impinging on or diminishing my respect for science, reason or any other rational pursuit of knowledge. (I do not question the value of science and reason only their 'all-encompassing' claims.)

Belief in the supernatural is a fundamental inauthenticity, a way to escape reality.

Again if the meaning of supernatural = God, I think this claim has some merit, but I would not agree to a blanket generalisation, even of religious belief. My path to accepting the possibility of the existence of the 'supernatural' has been from religious belief through science through existentialism and on to where I am now. It is not some naive, unquestioning, unearned (to use an SRDism ) position.

Supernatural is life-denying, world-denying. It is the original sin

The 'supernatural', as I see, it is nothing of the sort. In my experience it is a wholly life-affirming element that enables a greater level of human intimacy and amazingly expands the potential of what it means to be human.

u.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

We are not certain yet what Zarathustra means when he says "supernatural". He could mean "magic", God or other deities, ghosts, or anything outside the possibility or explanation of physics at this time. Of course, black holes exist outside our ability to fully explain them via physics at this time but we certainly don't consider those to be "supernatural".

Does anyone here work a Sudoku puzzle then at some point later go back, erase it, and work it again? Does anyone do the same crossword puzzle more than once? Is playing a video game through the second, third, or eighth time as satisfying as it was the first time? No? Do you know why not? It is because you already know all the answers even though you might try to forget that you know. Knowing all the answers can be a little boring so won't knowing everything there is to know about the universe be boring? Why shouldn't there be room for things in the universe that simply defy logic and mathematical certainty?

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

Hashi, you're making me question just who exactly is the rationalist here and who is not.