Feeding the poor or Enabling homelessness?

[Ananda]

If you feed them, that's going to be a pile of poop somewhere.

So the best thing to do is NOT feed them. Then they wont poop at all!!! Will the tax payers be on the hook for the body bags as they die from starvation or should we just dig a big hole and bury them in mass? Insensitive homeless people dying in my yard and in front of my customers. Maybe if we just bussed them to the desert and let the Coyotes clean up the mess.

You could just set up feeding troughs out in the swamps of florida. It will attract alligators, too, but it is surely a win win that way. Alligators get fed stray homeless people, homeless people pooping = fertiliser there and, when they get eaten by alligators, that is just less homeless people taking up space.

Or, you guys could prioritise that people are important and have a social safety net and stop the problem before it starts. Tough choice. I think the alligator solution would be interesting... maybe do both?

[Zarathustra]

If you feed them, that's going to be a pile of poop somewhere.

So the best thing to do is NOT feed them. Then they wont poop at all!!! Will the tax payers be on the hook for the body bags as they die from starvation or should we just dig a big hole and bury them in mass? Insensitive homeless people dying in my yard and in front of my customers. Maybe if we just bussed them to the desert and let the Coyotes clean up the mess.

You could just set up feeding troughs out in the swamps of florida. It will attract alligators, too, but it is surely a win win that way. Alligators get fed stray homeless people, homeless people pooping = fertiliser there and, when they get eaten by alligators, that is just less homeless people taking up space.

Or, you guys could prioritise that people are important and have a social safety net and stop the problem before it starts. Tough choice. I think the alligator solution would be interesting... maybe do both?

Was my point too blunt to deal with in a serious manner? Does this comedy schtick have an actual point behind it? Since I didn't say not to care for the homeless--but instead to provide them even MORE care than this priest wanted to provide (i.e. a place to relieve themselves), then it's you guys who are arguing for less humane treatment, not me. Apparently, homeless sanitation needs are a laughing matter?

Our public library is a big, beautiful, expensive building ... that smells like piss in the stairwells. A very strong smell of piss. Public sanitation concerns aren't a trivial matter.

[SoulBiter]

Was my point too blunt to deal with in a serious manner? Does this comedy schtick have an actual point behind it? Since I didn't say not to care for the homeless--but instead to provide them even MORE care than this priest wanted to provide (i.e. a place to relieve themselves), then it's you guys who are arguing for less humane treatment, not me. Apparently, homeless sanitation needs are a laughing matter?

Our public library is a big, beautiful, expensive building ... that smells like piss in the stairwells. A very strong smell of piss. Public sanitation concerns aren't a trivial matter.

My reply was a bit 'tongue in cheek'. I'm glad you caught that as well. How does this change if they eat at a place with a bathroom? They wont all stay in the area. Even if the Charity brings one, they wont be allowed to leave those there. They will have to take them away with them when they leave. So the problem will still be there.

I did some reading up on the whole thing and this is like the 5th ordinance they have thrown at these groups to try to get them to stop feeding the poor. And that is EXACTLY what this is about. They don't want them there and they don't want to have to spend any tax dollars on the issue. The idea of bathrooms is only partially about sanitation. The rest is trying to make it more difficult for these charities to exist.

[Ananda]

No, Z, your point wasn't too blunt, it was just ... well, this is just my opinion, obviously, but I think it is obscene that one of the wealthiest countries in the world has conversations about how to herd the masses of homeless around, where they should shit, piss and puke, but god forbid the conversation turn toward creating a social safety net so you don't have herds of homeless in the first place. The us can afford it, they just choose not to.

[sgt.null]

ananda - so we taxpayers should not be able to enjoy what we pay for? Z has a real point. my hometown library (Concord, NH) was made unbearable by the homeless sleeping there. the stench was horrific. they nearly destroyed the restrooms, forcing the library to lock them and go to a key system.

I am all for helping the poor and homeless. but there is a time and place. I donate to the food bank. I am not some Grinch.

but I agree with the Florida statute. if you feed them, provide a bathroom.

set up showers somewhere. a clothing bank.

I understand some will never get jobs, but those that will work should be working.

and realize there is no saving everyone. some will choose the streets no matter what you do.

[SoulBiter]

but I agree with the Florida statute. if you feed them, provide a bathroom.
set up showers somewhere. a clothing bank.

All great ideas. Why doesn't the city do that? If the homeless is such a blight and brings down taxes because people are staying away, then do something to make it better. Instead of saying, we want to help the homeless, the city says "We want them to leave".

Also like I said above, how long will the city allow any porta-potty that you bring to a public area to stay there? I suspect when you leave, it has to leave. In effect bringing a bathroom with you solves very little.

I understand some will never get jobs, but those that will work should be working.

and realize there is no saving everyone. some will choose the streets no matter what you do.

Yet this guy doesn't just feed people, he teaches them to cook and serve and then helps them get jobs at other food banks throughout the city. Take some time and look into this guys non-profit.

[Zarathustra]

No, Z, your point wasn't too blunt, it was just ... well, this is just my opinion, obviously, but I think it is obscene that one of the wealthiest countries in the world has conversations about how to herd the masses of homeless around, where they should shit, piss and puke, but god forbid the conversation turn toward creating a social safety net so you don't have herds of homeless in the first place. The us can afford it, they just choose not to.

How will a safety net prevent homelessness? Are you saying we should provide a home to anyone who wants one?

We already have safety nets. We don't need to be lectured about how we need to be more like your country.

[lorin]

I really don't understand where the debate here is. Or is it debate for the sake of debate? Every community has an obligation to care for their homeless. Or at least they should be obligated to care for them. This does not mean harassing them out of the community they reside. The question is the definition of care. Care does not mean feeding people on the beach or in a parking lot or in a park. It mean assisting a man, woman, child into a stable environment where they can eventually become a contributing member of society. Feeding them whitebread bologna sandwiches and luke warm coffee does not assist them toward any goal except maintaining that living condition. If Fort Lauderdale or any other community is harassing their homeless out then THAT is the issue that needs to be addressed. The towns around NYC has a solution. It was a one way greyhound ticket to NYC. This had to be addressed by the legal system and is was stopped.

Cities like FL have an obligation to care for their non homeless citizens as much as their homeless. Allowing homeless to use local parks and beaches as toilets places the quality of life of non homeless at risk, devalues property which in turn lowers draw of working people which in fact will increase the homeless population.

We need good quality, non wasteful social service agencies run by experienced workers. We do not to encourage stop and drop feeding.

[Morning]

What Sarge said.

[Avatar]

We don't need to be lectured about how we need to be more like your country.

But no problems telling other countries how they should be more like yours?

--A

[sgt.null]

We don't need to be lectured about how we need to be more like your country.

But no problems telling other countries how they should be more like yours?

--A

because we are the greatest country to ever exist. even at our worst we are better than everyone else.

we have to help these people get out of the poverty cycle. set them up so they can become self-sufficient. constant hand-outs may actually impede that growth for some. cyclic welfare creates a dependency culture.

something about fish vs fishing?

[SoulBiter]

We don't need to be lectured about how we need to be more like your country.

But no problems telling other countries how they should be more like yours?

--A

because we are the greatest country to ever exist. even at our worst we are better than everyone else.

we have to help these people get out of the poverty cycle. set them up so they can become self-sufficient. constant hand-outs may actually impede that growth for some. cyclic welfare creates a dependency culture.

something about fish vs fishing?

I agree. We need to break the cycle of poverty. But here we are decades after declaring war on poverty and we still have homelessness and poverty. What is being done today isnt working. Yet we keep rehashing the same old things and hoping for a better outcome. The downside is that outside of 'charity' not alot is being done. No one wants their tax dollars spent on this. But then we want to complain when 'charity' isnt a complete enough solution.

If I donate $100 to a charity to help some disadvantaged group that is my choice that I am free to make and glad to make. If, on the other hand, the government sticks its hands in my pocket and pulls out $100 to give to that same disadvantaged group then that is a case of me being robbed, except the weapon of choice is a law or a tax rather than a knife.

[Zarathustra]

We don't need to be lectured about how we need to be more like your country.

But no problems telling other countries how they should be more like yours?

--A

When did I do that?

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I agree. We need to break the cycle of poverty. But here we are decades after declaring war on poverty and we still have homelessness and poverty. What is being done today isnt working. Yet we keep rehashing the same old things and hoping for a better outcome. The downside is that outside of 'charity' not alot is being done. No one wants their tax dollars spent on this. But then we want to complain when 'charity' isnt a complete enough solution.

Poverty as a general problem can never and will never be solved unless we somehow transition ourselves into some sort of non-monetary system; such a change is so radical to existence as we know it now that trying to guess what it would take to accomplish it and what it would be like afterwards is impossible to predict. Individual people, though, can be brought out of poverty through education and/or job training combined with teaching them budgeting/money management skills. These people also have to be told that rising out of poverty is not a quick and clean process, it will take years and you may not see the full benefits of it even though your children and grandchildren will. My grandparents were almost all born on farms and wound up working manual labor their whole lives; my one grandfather found a modicum of success with his construction business until he died and the rest of it I won't get into. My parents didn't go to college but my dad got an associate's degree and has always been gifted at math and engineering so he did reasonably well despite still having to work, even now that he is pushing 70. I make more than either of my parents did and although I wish our situation were a little better we do quite nicely on the whole 1950s single-income schtick.

No one got into poverty overnight; no one gets out of poverty overnight. Our problem has always been that we think we can throw money at the situation and solve it, but ironically money isn't the problem with poverty. The problem is that when you are raised in an environment of poverty you internalize that as "normal" and you expect nothing good to come out of life. This sort of endemic, crushing lack of hope is the real problem.

[Harbinger]

If we quit feeding the needy people in poor countries many of them will die. But then, their society will find some type of equilibrium and balance. The strongest/most innovative/best adapters will survive. Survival of the fittest. The country, its people, and the whole world will be better off.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

Ah so. reductio ad absurdum, which is all I will say before walking away.

[Avatar]

The problem is that when you are raised in an environment of poverty you internalize that as "normal" and you expect nothing good to come out of life. This sort of endemic, crushing lack of hope is the real problem.

^ This. ^

--A

[Ananda]

Are you saying we should provide a home to anyone who wants one?

yes, provide housing, opportunity and so.

We already have safety nets. We don't need to be lectured about how we need to be more like your country.

Just make a list of topics I am not allowed to have an opinion on, please. It will make it easier.

[Avatar]

We don't need to be lectured about how we need to be more like your country.

But no problems telling other countries how they should be more like yours?

When did I do that?

Oh, democracy, capitalism, equal rights, drug laws, religion etc. etc.

Not that I necessarily disagree with all of those, (or that it's necessarily you specifically saying those things) it's just the principle.

--A

[Rawedge Rim]

Why not feed the homeless from churches, which IMOHO is one of the primary responsibilities of the CHURCH.? Every church I've ever seen has a restroom, and I'd really like to see the police enforce a law against feeding the poor from a church or other place of worship.

Or is that the churches don't want the homeless hanging around outside anymore than the business and tourist district of Ft. Lauderdale?