Genealogy

[Avatar]

Funny, was just chatting about something similar recently elsewhere. The long and the short of it is that I really don't care much about my ancestors. They're all dead, and one of these days, I will be too, and forgotten not long (historically speaking) after.

What's important is what I do and how I act now.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

You can say that about anything, Av. Why do you read so many books? If they aren't already, the authors will one day be dead, and you will be too. And their words will vanish with the universe. How is reading their books now important?

[wayfriend]

I think the inclination to know something about your "roots" is fairly common. It's about leaving something for history, but only in that you wish more was left for you to find. And so maybe you think about paying it forward.

Iolanthe is I think lucky that she lives in a land that has been largely obsessed with genealogy for millennia and so there is a rich and deep pool of data for her to dive into. Not everyone is as fortunate in their ancestry.

Sorus, your experience is similar (but only in an oblique way) to mine. That is, I empathize with the dilemma that you want to ask questions of your relative, but you don't feel close enough to ask, and you don't know how to start, and you're not sure how it will be received, or what can of worms will be opened if you touch it. And so time just marches on, and the issue never resolves.

[Avatar]

You can say that about anything, Av. Why do you read so many books? If they aren't already, the authors will one day be dead, and you will be too. And their words will vanish with the universe. How is reading their books now important?

It's not important. I do it because I enjoy it.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

Exactly! Genealogy is great fun! Detective work.

[Iolanthe]

You're right there Fist. We here in the UK are obsessed with Family History, but so too are all the countries whose indigenous populations were boosted by emigration from the British Isles, and now the Europeans are getting just as obsessed. As you say, it's good detective work, although with the onset of the on-line bandwagon there is now a lot of rubbish on the web that some researchers actually believe!! There must be many people out there collecting the wrong ancestors.

But that's another story. And there is another side to it as well. In-depth research by individuals has produced experts in areas that may not have been covered were it not for family history. After 30 years work on documents relating to the poor I've become something of an expert on the poor law, even having written a book on the subject. There are now many learned books on surname derivation, old occupations have been thoroughly researched, and it all adds up to a great deal of knowledge about social history.

As with anything, we get out of it what we put in. There is a great camaraderie amongst family historians, random acts of kindness abound. It's a good thing to be involved in.

[Skyweir]

We met with a new client a few weeks back - a retired ex-serviceman (DOF) and librarian/archivist and they do military research for members of their family who served in WWI & WWII. I assume they'd do any military service though.

Thanks Skyweir, I have enough for 20 books, a lot of it is posted to a FB Group that I host for people with an interest in the surname, most of them from the US!

Well, I have a graverobber on my mother's side - he was caught sending bits of bodies off in parcels by coach to medical researchers and died in prison. Mum wasn't very enamoured by that one

I also have a petition written by a possible ancestor in the 1480s (not dated but addressed to Edward IV and Edward V), and I have a photograph of the earliest reference found so far, 1385. These two in Cheshire where all my Dad's ancestors came from.

During the early 1700s my direct ancestors got up to all sorts of things - getting drunk in an alehouse and fighting (1699), stealing geese and cheese, hitting people with pikes - all this from browsing the Quarter Sessions records. One was even up in court for shouting "Down with the Rump" outside the gates of Cholmondeley Castle in the 1740s - something to do with George 1 and the Jacobites.

Yes, it can be a very interesting hobby if you don't just collect names and dates.

Oh my god that is beyond exciting Iolanthe! What a brilliant idea to put everything online/ create Facebook group for your family. I'm going to do that! I was born in the U.K. - and have only a few generations recorded. I'd love to go back further and find information about my ancestors. How did you get so far back? What sources are you using? A website or program? I wonder if I could research from here lol ... I wish you could post pics and that petition to Edward IV ... love to see them but it's probably not doable.

[Skyweir]

You're right there Fist. We here in the UK are obsessed with Family History, but so too are all the countries whose indigenous populations were boosted by emigration from the British Isles, and now the Europeans are getting just as obsessed. As you say, it's good detective work, although with the onset of the on-line bandwagon there is now a lot of rubbish on the web that some researchers actually believe!! There must be many people out there collecting the wrong ancestors.

But that's another story. And there is another side to it as well. In-depth research by individuals has produced experts in areas that may not have been covered were it not for family history. After 30 years work on documents relating to the poor I've become something of an expert on the poor law, even having written a book on the subject. There are now many learned books on surname derivation, old occupations have been thoroughly researched, and it all adds up to a great deal of knowledge about social history.

As with anything, we get out of it what we put in. There is a great camaraderie amongst family historians, random acts of kindness abound. It's a good thing to be involved in.

What is your book title and details - I'll request it through our library

[Iolanthe]

It won't take you long to read Skyweir, only 44 pages. My son called a "pamphlet" - blooming cheek. But that was the first edition which was even thinner, only 35 pages.

It's called "An Introduction to Poor Law Documents before 1834" ISBN number 1 86006 127 3, published by the Federation of Family History Societies. I did get royalties but it didn't make me a rich woman! It's now out of print.

[Iolanthe]

Oh my god that is beyond exciting Iolanthe! What a brilliant idea to put everything online/ create Facebook group for your family. I'm going to do that! I was born in the U.K. - and have only a few generations recorded. I'd love to go back further and find information about my ancestors. How did you get so far back? What sources are you using? A website or program? I wonder if I could research from here lol ... I wish you could post pics and that petition to Edward IV ... love to see them but it's probably not doable.

When I started there were no computers around, didn't get my first until 1985 - Spectrum - not much good for FH. So I went to Cheshire every year for a week with the family, camping, spent the week in the record office researching while my husband took the children out every day. That was how we did it in those days. Did a lot of browsing and found all sorts of interesting things. Nowadays it is much easier. There are websites with original documents such as parish registers that you can use, and all the Pay Per View sites have census records. You should join a local (to you) Genealogical Society - there are loads in Aus. There you will be able to get help from people who know how to go about research.

Regarding the old docs, they images are all copyright so I don't post anything on the public FB page except modern photos or docs that I own myself. I do post transcriptions of docs on the page though. The Petition is a free download from the National Archives website. If you do a google search for DUNCALF you should find all my stuff on the web. I use a program called "Family Historian" for recording all the info that I have, which creates a gedcom file that I can send to another site that I use, Tribal Pages, where trees can be kept, but I have complete control over the trees and they can't be downloaded by anyone else. They also allow me to "hide" living people, unless I give access to descendants who make a request. I would never put a family tree onto ancestry, although there is one of mine there as a site I used many years ago, Gencircles, was bought up by Ancestry and they published all the trees. Loads of people have copied it although it has several errors and I cannot now access it to do corrections.

[Linna Heartbooger]

I wish he'd just say something if he has something to say.

It doesn't seem that he has any more of an idea how to go about it than you do. But he continues to exchange letters. He doesn't have to, which means he wants to...

Fist- I get the "he doesn't necessarily have any more of an idea how to go about it that you do." thing.
I think that dynamic was at work with me and my dad a lot.

and man... I swear, I could do a whole thread about how relating to peeps on the Watch has helped me in how I think about my dad, and gave me more ideas for conversation topics with him...

...Several years ago, I returned to my old home town for a funeral, a death in the family. It was an occasion for me to meet a lot of semi-distant relatives that I had never known I had. For me this was fascinating, but sad, but embarrassing. I resolved to come back to town as soon as I could and start mapping out the edges of my family tree.

Why embarrassing?
Cause you'd been away from home for so long, and out of contact?
Or cause your lives are worlds apart you barely have common topics?
Or something else?
(you don't have to say.)

I never did. Embarrassment won. Now, I regret it. My kids will probably never know about all those people, their relatives too, unless I get my act together.

Maybe it doesn't all hang on you, wf.
Maybe somewhere among those distant, little-known relatives are one or two with whom is just dying to talk to ANYONE about what you want to.
Which is to say other people have their own drives & motivations... you wouldn't necessarily keep the conversation going once it got started.
And sometimes a serendipitous circumstance outside your own control can cause a huge change for the positive in how you connect with a family member. (I should know.)

(Umm, does any of that sound helpful? also... I totally have no idea how to address the "can of worms" possibility...)

[Fist and Faith]

I've never really felt like I had an actual membership in the other side of my family. My father and I went for 20 years or so without speaking to one another, starting when I was 12, so he's basically a stranger to me. We exchange letters a couple of times a year, but don't really have any idea what to say to one another. I got a letter from him last week. Didn't say much. He enclosed a photograph with no mention or description. I don't know what to say in return. I feel like I should acknowledge it in some way, but I am wary of what doors I might be opening. My best guess is that it's a picture of my sister when she was 7-8 years old. She'd be in her early 30s now. We've never met. The whole thing is weird and out of character, and I wish he'd just say something if he has something to say.

Do you watch Fresh Off The Boat?

[Sorus]

Do you watch Fresh Off The Boat?

I do not. Had to Google it. Guessing there's a context deeper than 'family drama' but it wasn't jumping out at me. I basically live under a rock as far as TV is concerned.

[Fist and Faith]

They went to a relative's wedding. Jessica exchanged pleasantries with a man for about fifteen seconds. When he walked away, her husband asked who the guy was. "My father."

[Sorus]

That sounds about accurate. Fifteen seconds of awkward small talk about the weather.

(I wrote back and asked about the picture. Can't help feeling like it was some kind of test that I've probably failed, but who knows.)

[Skyweir]

When I started there were no computers around, didn't get my first until 1985 - Spectrum - not much good for FH. So I went to Cheshire every year for a week with the family, camping, spent the week in the record office researching while my husband took the children out every day. That was how we did it in those days. Did a lot of browsing and found all sorts of interesting things. Nowadays it is much easier. There are websites with original documents such as parish registers that you can use, and all the Pay Per View sites have census records. You should join a local (to you) Genealogical Society - there are loads in Aus. There you will be able to get help from people who know how to go about research.

Regarding the old docs, they images are all copyright so I don't post anything on the public FB page except modern photos or docs that I own myself. I do post transcriptions of docs on the page though. The Petition is a free download from the National Archives website. If you do a google search for DUNCALF you should find all my stuff on the web. I use a program called "Family Historian" for recording all the info that I have, which creates a gedcom file that I can send to another site that I use, Tribal Pages, where trees can be kept, but I have complete control over the trees and they can't be downloaded by anyone else. They also allow me to "hide" living people, unless I give access to descendants who make a request. I would never put a family tree onto ancestry, although there is one of mine there as a site I used many years ago, Gencircles, was bought up by Ancestry and they published all the trees. Loads of people have copied it although it has several errors and I cannot now access it to do corrections.

Cheers Iolanthe!

That is awesome information. I will request your book when I get back home

I'm excite!!

[Linna Heartbooger]

So I went to Cheshire every year for a week with the family, camping, spent the week in the record office researching while my husband took the children out every day...

I just noticed this just now.
Wow, that's dedication.
And neat teamwork for getting that done.

I would never put a family tree onto ancestry, although there is one of mine there as a site I used many years ago, Gencircles, was bought up by Ancestry and they published all the trees. Loads of people have copied it although it has several errors and I cannot now access it to do corrections.

That is frustrating... it's like... you've done the work, have the info, and yet... can't get it to people.
Is there any place that seems appropriate for you to publish an errata file?
where the motivated researchers would end up in their web wanderings...

That sounds about accurate. Fifteen seconds of awkward small talk about the weather.

(I wrote back and asked about the picture. Can't help feeling like it was some kind of test that I've probably failed, but who knows.)

I'm happy you did.
but I think making the effort is passing one kind of a test...
we don't always get to know what things are the tests!

Did you say you'd never met your sister?

and the weather conversations... yeahh..
I found the feeling of distance that came with them so off-putting.
(not to mention I didn't feel like I was accomplishing anything useful if the conversation was that boring.)
does he live in the same geographical region right now?

Also- Fist - you were thinking there's lack of interest in DNA tests here, but you got me thinking.
I would like to do one to get the answer to one odd question.
still considering it.
I will probably continue to be pretty slow on this decision.

[Vraith]

My wife and I are both doing DNA for Xmas. She's just doing it for general stuff, not interested in family [yet, anyway]. I'm sorta interested in that...cuz I have literally dozens of aunts/uncles/cousins that I've MET---and several times that that I haven't, and that's just in the living population from my parents to my sisters kids kids generations.
But there's a specific thing this won't solve, and on the "families...but it's odd/weird/stressful/ugly" history topic going on here...

I joined the Army, and was heading to basic training on the 13th of July...
So my little hick "more cows than people" town has a fair overlapping the 4th...
And, like all hick town fairs [[and most other ones, too]], it has a beer tent and a dice game...
So, my Dad and I gamble and drink like the world is ending tomorrow...
[[only time he and I got totally fucking bombed together]]...
So, we have to walk home, or risk wiping out every tree, pedestrian, and car in town...
Well, not the trees---they're rooted in place---but everything on wheels or bipedal in town is somewhere near the parking lot, and at extremely high risk if either of us tries to drive...
We get too exhausted on that endless stroll, have to take a break...
[[note: our house is not EVEN a whole mile from the fairgrounds]].
And we start blathering about me leaving and the Army...
I tell him I INSISTED on going overseas, and got Germany [[not that insistence mattered...the military LIKES people who WANT to go abroad, though I didn't know that then]].
He tells me stuff about Germany and how he loved serving there...
And OUT OF NOWHERE blurts out that he had a girlfriend there...
[It was before he met/married my mom, thank god]
And she got preggers, the family sent her away, and refused to tell him anything at all, and I might have a sibling over there...
BUT...we are NOT a talking family...
He NEVER mentioned it before or since...
And I can't find any way to make myself ask him about it now...
I really want to know...
But our peeps just don't talk about shit...and what happens in drunken stupor STAYS in drunken stupor.

TMI, or TL;DR? oh well.

[Avatar]

Interesting in the skeletons in the closet sort of sense, but not really something I can identify with. Blood connections never seemed that important to me.

The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof.

The only "effective" (opposed to theoretical") family I have left is one of my cousins, who I've always had a great relationship with based mostly off shared perspectives.)

--A

[Sorus]

BUT...we are NOT a talking family...
He NEVER mentioned it before or since...
And I can't find any way to make myself ask him about it now...
I really want to know...
But our peeps just don't talk about shit...and what happens in drunken stupor STAYS in drunken stupor.

TMI, or TL;DR? oh well.

Sounds a lot like my family in some ways, though I'm on the other side of the equation. I can't offer any advice. It's a matter of weighing the possibility that bringing it up will be throwing gasoline on a fire, versus the knowledge that one day it will be too late and you may regret that you didn't try.

For what it's worth, I think my grandparents eventually regretted the way they treated me. Maybe things could have been different, but it's too late now. It's not too late to (potentially) gain a relationship with my father and sister and I don't even know if I have other siblings. I'm just not sure if that's a door I want to open.