But people who are upset about Big Data swaying elections only seem to get upset about it when it seems to help Republicans/conservatives (I haven't seen any evidence that it has, only conspiracy theories).peter wrote:Z - you are simply not getting this. It isn't about Trump or not Trump, Republican or Democrat, Brexit or not Brexit. Your lens is simply way too focused here. The examples being used are simply the ones that are pertinent by virtue of being the standout cases we can point to. If the Dems or Remain had won by virtue of the same methods it would be just as wrong.
Are you concerned that Google is biased against Trump and trying to stop him, or not? Given their massive power over the flow of information, does it bother you at all when they make it flow Left?
Of course it's possible to have fair democratic elections. What difference does it make if the 'Gods of Big Tech' sway public opinion to believe bullshit through propaganda and a manipulation of "likes," (whatever the hell that means), and the Democratic Presidential candidates blatantly trying to connect Trump with the latest mass shootings? It's bullshit either way. People are ALWAYS going to try to make you believe bullshit. Do Dems spouting bullshit make it impossible to have fair democratic electcions?peter wrote:The issue is (to return to Carol Cadwalladr's final point) "Whether it will ever be possible to have a fair and democratic election again". Whether (as she puts it) this is what they (the Gods of Big Tech) want - to be the handmaidens to an authoritarianism that sweeps all aside in front of it (Trump and Brexit included) by virtue of its dark imperceptibly and insidious methodology.
No. Should we make it illegal for Dems to spout bullshit? No. It's up to you to reject it.
Wow. Sorry, man, I just can't jump on that bandwagon. I do not form opinions about reality this way. Smart people can still believe dumb things. And you're seriously proposing that the government is a reliable source? In an argument against authoritarianism? You're right, I don't get it.peter wrote:Earlier on you challenged me to "come up with the facts" to demonstrate what - that these practices are being levied against us or that they can be effective? Both? This is of course not something I can do. I simply haven't the time or inclination to go back to the source to satisfy this demand - but as with many things in life, their are voices of individuals, way smarter than me, way more deeply immersed in the subject whose recorded opinions I do trust (think Yuval Harare, think Ben Hammersley, think the UK Government and yes, the makers of numerous film and TV programs on the subject) who seem to think we have a problem.
I'm not saying that the techniques don't exist. I'm saying that you haven't even described what the techniques are. How do they work?peter wrote:I'm fine with the argument that maybe this is all simple paranoia - that these techniques don't exist (well, we all know they do actually), that they were not/ are not being levied against us at the whole population level (well, the evidence would suggest that they are actually) of that they simply don't work (more difficult this one, maybe the jury's still out on this) - but to see it as simply a disgruntled remain or Democrat case of sour grapes is absolutely to miss the point by a mile.
I will say that they aren't being levied against the whole population. My kids (18-26) aren't on Facebook. Millennials don't use it. It's a middle-age thing. And in my use of it, I don't see these "techniques." No one is steering me to like things that I didn't already like prior to joining.
What if those people were all reading newspapers? Prior to cellphones, that's what I saw when I took mass transit. Why is the image of reading a newspaper (or book) less sinister? Do you think there is less propaganda in the New York Times? At least on my phone, I can chat with people I care about, instead of insignificant, insincere conversations with people around me merely because the silence is awkward.peter wrote: I sat in the airport in Copenhagen the other day facing a row of people in the opposite bank of chairs. To a man and woman, their heads were bowed, their thumbs tapping away; their was no communication, no interest in the surroundings - just a total and complete absorption into .......what? We have all seen this, in the subway, on the buses, in our office canteens. I would like to put a collage of images together. The filing masses of people in Fritz Leiber's masterpiece Metropolis; a girl strapped to a gurney, face distorted in rage as she is carried off the plane in which she finally snapped and went berserk (front page of The Sun a couple of weeks ago); the dystopian vision of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Call these to mind, mix them up, and this is something like what all this is about to me. Paranoid? Maybe. Remainer sour grapes? Definitely not.
I resisted getting a smartphone for 8 years. It wasn't until 2015 until I got one. Until then, it bugged me that my kids had their noses in a phone while sitting on the couch, watching a movie with the family. The irony of me getting upset about them staring at a screen while I stared at a larger screen was lost on me. I wanted "family time," as in "family movie night." I wanted to share the experience of Story. Their attention spans had seemed to have shrunk so small that following a 2 hour narrative was beyond their patience. I thought it was a sign that the next generation was screwed, diminished by their technology.
Then I finally got a smartphone, and that posture of huddling over your palm became familiar. I got it. The instant access to the whole of human knowledge in the palm of my hand, no matter where I was, was a miracle. "Put down the phone" had become my "get off my lawn." I had been becoming the cliche of one generation not understanding the next.
That's how you sound now. Paranoid, yes, but even worse: an old man scared of newfangled things that you don't understand. You even admit that your opinion isn't based on evidence! You sound like my father who has lived in fear for years that we'll all have to get chips embedded in us in order to buy food (he thinks it will be the Biblical "Mark of the Beast"), and will not use credit cards with chips for this reason. Of course, he is entirely oblivious to the fact that most of the time when he is warning me of this danger, he is talking to me on a cellphone with a "chip" in it. Even when I brought this to his attention, he never gave up his phone. He continues to surf websites that fill him with fear of a future of chip-slavery, unable to see how chips have brought us unprecedented freedom.
Right now, this very minute, we're talking about how you are concerned about things you haven't seen, for which you have no evidence, and which you think are endangering our entire society (e.g. democracy). You are worried that people are being led to believe things--via the Internet--which aren't true. And yet, you are taking something you've seen on the Internet at face value! Not a hint of skepticism.
Do you really think it doesn't matter who benefits from this myth? Why are you so quick to dismiss that concern? Name a single Republican/conservative/Rightist who benefits from spreading this fear. It is used entirely to undermine the vote for Brexit and the 2016 election of Trump. That's it. Maybe you are falling for a misinformation campaign right now!