Holt or Hashi

[Loredoctor]

Hmmm. Human like - to understand us for the their tactics? But the days of the Amnion being able to change us are limited or few. Humanity can counter the mutagen which changes the state of play. I dont deny that the Amnion's technology can cause us major grief, but if they send in 5 Behemoths to invade (keeping some in reserve to defend their space) we have ten times that number to defend, or invade. We have the numbers. And they lose a Behemoth it takes years before another one is released/grown from their dockyards.

[CovenantJr]

Humanity does indeed have the immunity drug - but the Amnion know that, and it's stated several times during the course of the series that there's nothing to stop them modifying the mutagen to bypass the immunity.

In any case, I'm not thinking in terms of lateral battle. I'm thinking subtlety. Amnion who can pass as human can make more Amnion. Worlds of Amnion. They don't have to simply kill their enemies; if done correctly, a large number of their fallen enemies will rise again as allies.

And I didn't mean the increased understanding of human thinking will make a difference in so concrete a manner as battle strategy. Throughout the books, the main advantage of humanity as a species over the Amnion is unpredictability. But we see in the case of Marc Vestabule that certain Amnion, if mutated properly, can begin to apply this flexibility themselves. They begin to overcome their rigidity.

Ultimately, not only do the Amnion revive their enemies as allies, they also become increasingly like their enemy until any earlier advantage is gone. They are, if given time, unstoppable. The only means by which I can humanity surviving is either total elimination of all Amnion in short order, or a vice-like grip on their cost/benefit balance - the Holt Fasner approach.

[Loredoctor]

Ahhh, good post.

Ultimately, not only do the Amnion revive their enemies as allies, they also become increasingly like their enemy until any earlier advantage is gone.

Therein lies the irony; the amnion way may suffer because they become alot like us.

[Revan]

Yup, I completely agree with Roger. Humanity needed Holt to survive. Someone who saw the whole picture.

The problem I sometimes find with Donaldsons work is that it is often too moralistic. Oh, there are plenty of immoral things within the context on the story. But in the end the messages in his books are the same: be true, be morally strong. The good guys always win, usually at a price.

As we know, the world doesn't work that way, ruthless people mantain places of power, good people homeless and ineffectual. The other way round as well. But that is what I'm trying to say - good guys don't always win.

And another thing, I often think that Holt was the key to humanity's survival. Perhaps because he was so profoundly ruthless. I mean look at the American Government - completely ruthless, and it's the most powerful in the world. Being ruthless isn't always bad when it benefits the world as a whole. Just like Holt's ruthlessness wasn't all that bad , as long it did humanity good as a whole.

[CovenantJr]

Ahhh, good post.

Ultimately, not only do the Amnion revive their enemies as allies, they also become increasingly like their enemy until any earlier advantage is gone.

Therein lies the irony; the amnion way may suffer because they become alot like us.

That's a fair point. But I'm not sure "pure" Amnion could ever become even slightly human. I think they'd place former humans like Vestabule and Taverner in front line decision making roles to counter human spontaneity and invention. It could be argued that the more the Amnion rely on these part-human sub-leaders the weaker their position becomes, but since all governance seems to be done by the mysterious Mind/Union, this might not be the case. As long as the core ruling power of the Amnion doesn't become "infected" with humanity - and I can't see that happening - it shouldn't be a problem. Since we don't know what the Mind/Union actually is, it's hard to say.

[Loredoctor]

. . . It could be argued that the more the Amnion rely on these part-human sub-leaders the weaker their position becomes, but since all governance seems to be done by the mysterious Mind/Union, this might not be the case. As long as the core ruling power of the Amnion doesn't become "infected" with humanity - and I can't see that happening - it shouldn't be a problem. Since we don't know what the Mind/Union actually is, it's hard to say.

But if the amnion mind/union is comprised of every individual - a gestalt consciousness - and there being no 'queen' amnion, the more amnion that are 'humanised' the more the mind/union changes.

[CovenantJr]

Indeed, but we don't know what the Mind/Union is. That name seems to have been assigned somewhat arbitrarily based on human theories.

[Loredoctor]

True. I have difficulty accepting the hive mind theory as it is almost impossible to establish in a faster than light society (if the connection requires slower than light communication between 'drones'), or perhaps I am just biased against hive-minds (apart from Tyranids) as the idea is overdone and uninteresting.

[CovenantJr]

That's an interesting point. A hive mind in a FTL society doesn't make much sense. And you're right; hive consciousness does seem to be used a lot, presumably because it's one of the most obvious ways an alien race could be very different from us.

Now I think about it, I don't see that the Amnion can have a hive mind. They had a small number of those synchronised crystal things for instantaneous communication - between Calm Horizons and Soar, if memory serves - which would be completely unnecessary if they had the kind of collective consciousness implied by the term "Mind/Union". The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards them having some form of central decision-maker, or possibly a small, localised collective that functions as a composite.

Conveniently, that supports my earlier theories.

[Loredoctor]

Now I think about it, I don't see that the Amnion can have a hive mind. They had a small number of those synchronised crystal things for instantaneous communication - between Calm Horizons and Soar, if memory serves - which would be completely unnecessary if they had the kind of collective consciousness implied by the term "Mind/Union".

That's a really good point. You should bring it up in the general interview.

[Peven]

I don't agree that Holt was good for humankind, he was good for Holt. he held humankind back, for his own benefit. he squelched innovation and advancement of humankind as a whole in order to better control and manipulate it. much the same as a monopoly in business stunts improvement and innovation in a particular industry, Holt's monopolistic control of humankind's technology and space exploration did the same.

[CovenantJr]

It did indeed. What do you think of the suggestion that humankind is incapable of surviving the Amnion without him?

[Revan]

I don't agree that Holt was good for humankind, he was good for Holt. he held humankind back, for his own benefit. he squelched innovation and advancement of humankind as a whole in order to better control and manipulate it. much the same as a monopoly in business stunts improvement and innovation in a particular industry, Holt's monopolistic control of humankind's technology and space exploration did the same.

Agreed. but I think that by the end of the story, there is no-one who sees, or is capable of seeing - the broad situation like Holt always could. Therefore I think that human kind within the context of this story would be defeate without him.

[CovenantJr]

Indeed. In fact, when we finally find out what Holt's motives actually are, he's more concerned with thwarting the Amnion and preserving humankind than he seems.

Of course, he's also a power-hungry monster. But still...

[Revan]

Indeed. In fact, when we finally find out what Holt's motives actually are, he's more concerned with thwarting the Amnion and preserving humankind than he seems.

Of course, he's also a power-hungry monster. But still...

Exactly. But really, all effective super-powers must be ruthless. If they are seen as compassionate, they would be seen as push overs, and people would take advantage of that - and they wouldn't be that effective a superpower. Holt had that, and knew how to use it to his advantage.

[Loredoctor]

Agreed. but I think that by the end of the story, there is no-one who sees, or is capable of seeing - the broad situation like Holt always could. Therefore I think that human kind within the context of this story would be defeate without him.

I disagree here. Holt was in it purely for technological resources from the amnion whilst allowing humanity to suffer. So there's no greater good for humanity. And under Holt's 'rule' the amnion were developing near-C acceleration and the mutagen was suppressed - surely a recipe for disaster.

And how do we know that Hashi and Min won't do just as good or better? They haven't the chance to prove themselves, but already the amnion have been strongly weakned with the loss of one defensive and the release of the anti-mutagen (which more will develop with the release of further alterations to the AM).

[Revan]

Agreed. but I think that by the end of the story, there is no-one who sees, or is capable of seeing - the broad situation like Holt always could. Therefore I think that human kind within the context of this story would be defeate without him.

I disagree here. Holt was in it purely for technological resources from the amnion whilst allowing humanity to suffer. So there's no greater good for humanity. And under Holt's 'rule' the amnion were developing near-C acceleration and the mutagen was suppressed - surely a recipe for disaster.

And how do we know that Hashi and Min won't do just as good or better? They haven't the chance to prove themselves, but already the amnion have been strongly weakned with the loss of one defensive and the release of the anti-mutagen (which more will develop with the release of further alterations to the AM).

Regardless of Holt's reasons - I believe that he and he alone could deal with the Amnion threat - that he had the foresight to know what to do - niether Min or Hashi have that feat I think.

[Loredoctor]

Agreed. but I think that by the end of the story, there is no-one who sees, or is capable of seeing - the broad situation like Holt always could. Therefore I think that human kind within the context of this story would be defeate without him.

I disagree here. Holt was in it purely for technological resources from the amnion whilst allowing humanity to suffer. So there's no greater good for humanity. And under Holt's 'rule' the amnion were developing near-C acceleration and the mutagen was suppressed - surely a recipe for disaster.

And how do we know that Hashi and Min won't do just as good or better? They haven't the chance to prove themselves, but already the amnion have been strongly weakned with the loss of one defensive and the release of the anti-mutagen (which more will develop with the release of further alterations to the AM).

Regardless of Holt's reasons - I believe that he and he alone could deal with the Amnion threat - that he had the foresight to know what to do - niether Min or Hashi have that feat I think.

He had no forsight. As I wrote:

And under Holt's 'rule' the amnion were developing near-C acceleration and the mutagen was suppressed - surely a recipe for disaster.

[Revan]

He did. He had the foresight that the methods that humans meant to use wouldn't work. Within the story, I believe humans get defeated... not extinct - there are too many of them for that - but defeated.

[Loredoctor]

But that doesn't mean anything. It was the Gap drive which brought humanity out of the mire, not Holt. And regardless, using that as an argument is not valid; Hitler brough Germany out of a mire, too.
And again:

And under Holt's 'rule' the amnion were developing near-C acceleration and the mutagen was suppressed - surely a recipe for disaster.

And let's not forget what Holt really had in mind for humanity when he got his hands on Davies. Oh, and under Holt piracy was rampant, as was the trade in humans because Holt knew that's what the Amnion wanted in exchange for materials. He was also willing to slaughter his own people to get his ends: witness what he did with the Kazes. There is no safety, no security with Holt - just terrorism and the threat of the amnion.

With Holt as leader, it would be only a matter of time before the amnion invade with near-c capable ships and mass conversion of humans as the mutagen would be suppressed.