Holt or Hashi

[Revan]

Who's the more Intelligent?

[Loredoctor]

Hashi, though Holt has all the charm

[Revan]

I liked Holt... He was my favourite character in some ways... i think Holt is the smarter of the two.

[Revan]

Ah, this was during my one line topics phrase... right, time to redeem this thread.

Firstly, I think this is a very generalized and simpleminded question to ask... simply asking, "who is the more intelligent?" is impossible to answer.

I call it simple minded because the answer is at once both simple and complex... the answer to the question of who is the more intelligent, Holt or Hashi is - both.

Allow me to elaborate; Holt for example has a great intelligence when it comes to manipulating people... he possessed a far greater intelligent than Hashi in being able to discern people's goals, and use them to his ends. We can think of endless cases in this, the most profound of which; Warden.

However it is revealed several times that Hashi considered himself an ingenious manipulator; not of people, but of situations. Hashi also considered himself skilled at discerning people’s goals. He thought that his way of thinking allowed him to get to the heart of what someone intended. However this strength gave off a weakness - Hashi could never empathize, he simply saw intention, and acted on it, maybe never truly understand why the person did what they did, but only that they did what they did.

Perhaps in the intelligence off manipulation, the difference between the two is circulation; Holt achieved his ends by manipulating people to manipulate the situation; Hashi manipulated the situation by which the people were manipulated.

And as for science, building cyborgs, weapons systems, data chips; Hashi would, on surface value at least, have the greater intelligence. But does he? Holt may not know how to do those things, but can order them done with ease. So Holt's intelligence regarding how to run a business, how to manipulate people, and to use resources, have annulled any need to be intellectual in the area's that Hashi is intellectual in.

There are other ways to look at these character, other strengths and intellects they have; Holt and Hashi are like every human, strengthen and yet limited by the way they think, their morals, their actions and thoughts. Anyone who has read the books would agree they are both exceedingly intelligent; but you also have to look at their goals, and would Holt really need the knowledge of how to build a cyborg, would Hashi really need the knowledge of what people and strings can be pulled to make himself a more dominate player in human space?

[Nathan]

I think Hashi was more intelligent than Holt.

In the end it was Hashi's realisation that he needed to learn to empathise that probably brought Holt down. He allowed Lane Harbinger to give evidence to the council rather than do it himself, because he knew they considered him untrustworthy.

[CovenantJr]

I replied to this, pre-hack. Grrr.

I think Hashi was probably more intelligent in an analytical sense, but he lacked Holt's grasp of motivation. Hashi struggled to understand (or even conceive) motives or lines of reasoning that differed much from his own. And Holt had an ability to penetrate complexity that Hashi again appeared to lack (see Holt and Warden's meeting about Holt's orders for Trumpet).

So in summary, I think Hashi is more intelligent in abstract, but Holt's intelligence is more practical.

[Penner Theologius Pott]

Hashi is more intelligent, because he understands his own limitations. That's why he survives, and Holt doesn't.

[Loredoctor]

Hashi is more intelligent, because he understands his own limitations. That's why he survives, and Holt doesn't.

Very good point.

[drew]

Yeah but Holt survived for quite some time.
I think he probebly lived through a heck of a lot too; I can't see Warden and Sixten being the only two who ever succeded in causing him any missery.

[Revan]

I replied to this, pre-hack. Grrr.

I think Hashi was probably more intelligent in an analytical sense, but he lacked Holt's grasp of motivation. Hashi struggled to understand (or even conceive) motives or lines of reasoning that differed much from his own. And Holt had an ability to penetrate complexity that Hashi again appeared to lack (see Holt and Warden's meeting about Holt's orders for Trumpet).

So in summary, I think Hashi is more intelligent in abstract, but Holt's intelligence is more practical.

That in itself raises a point.

A few weeks ago, I started a topic in the Close about whether or not action is more important than intention - though this is not entirely applicable with the point I will make in a moment - it does have it's parallels.

Most agreed that the action is more important than the intent... the effect is more important than the cause.

If Holt is more intelligent than Hashi is the practical world, but not the abstract, surely that means that he is more intelligent than Hashi. Holt's intelligence by it's very nature is more effective and real than any abstract intelligence Hashi has.

[Loredoctor]

But is Hashi less effective in the practical world? Look at Hashi managed in the design of Trumpet and of Angus. Angus' technologies were nothing short of amazing, and not to mention the miniature Matter cannon.

[Revan]

But is Hashi less effective in the practical world? Look at Hashi managed in the design of Trumpet and of Angus. Angus' technologies were nothing short of amazing, and not to mention the miniature Matter cannon.

Wait, we don't know all those creations were of Hashi's doing. Remember, there were places where Cyborgs were made and technology for them was carried out (Billingate, Becker). And as for designing trumpet. I'm sure he didn't do all that on himself - and even if he did, he didn't develop all the technology by himself - previous ships have them.

And the miniature Matter Cannon wasn't of his making either - Or so I think, with the information we're given in the book. When Angus goes to rescue Morn from Billingate, she notes that he is carrying a miniature Matter cannon; therefore she is not unfamiliar with them... so based on this information - we cannot say for sure that Hashi designed it... though it is probable that someone in the, or connected, to the UMCP built it... as they are some of the only people who had the power and money to design those sorts of technology with the universe of the Gap.

However, I do concede that he did do some of the work on Angus himself.. the jamming fields were an amazing touch. So yes, Hashi does have a large practical effect.

[drew]

...not to mention the extra programing Hashi put into Angus (the hiden codes)

If there is ever a GAP Two...I could alsmot see Hashi being the new Holt though. He had tonnes of respect for Ward, yes..but hell, so did Holt.

[Revan]

No, I don't think that's anywhere near the truth.

Power did not interest Hashi at all... remember what he said to Min when he gave up his position as Acting Director?

Command interests me - very little.

[Penner Theologius Pott]

Meh, but surely the ability to exploit other people's work is a sign of intelligence, no? Other inventors may have had the mechanical knowledge to create these technologies, but Hashi had the imagination to put them to use.

Wait, we don't know all those creations were of Hashi's doing. Remember, there were places where Cyborgs were made and technology for them was carried out (Billingate, Becker). And as for designing trumpet. I'm sure he didn't do all that on himself - and even if he did, he didn't develop all the technology by himself - previous ships have them.

[Loredoctor]

Good post, Penner.

[Loredoctor]

Yes, Holt was the bane of humankind - but he was also possibly its only defence. To me, this puts a new, bleak, slant on the ending of the series. So much redemption, yet all shall fall to the Amnion in time.

I disagree. His decision to withhold the mutagen antidote for reasons of perpetuating the state of affairs - that is trade - made him compromise humanity. No one tried anything - like blowing up Thanatos Minor - until Warden tried to make a stand. With him gone people will try more. And recall the Amnion needed the peaceful state because they required our resources - which they could not get otherwise. Humanity's defense is that its got better industry.

I think the outcome will be a stalemate; with the Amnion's inefficient manufacturing but superior technology, and Humanity's weaker technology but superior manufacturing. SRD thought this, too - in the GI.

[CovenantJr]

SRD thought this, too - in the GI.

That doesn't make him right I still maintain that humanity needs Holt in order to survive. The Amnion will win sooner or later.

[Loredoctor]

SRD thought this, too - in the GI.

That doesn't make him right I still maintain that humanity needs Holt in order to survive. The Amnion will win sooner or later.

Not sure; we can outgun them quicker. And look what Hashi managed with Angus.

[CovenantJr]

Hashi did achieve impressive feats with Angus; but I can't see the reformed UMCP (whatever the new name is - I forget) having the resources to achieve that kind of welding/wedding on a scale that will make much difference. The Joshua project must have been incredibly expensive.

Also, Angus achieved a lot, but I don't consider it something that could be repeated with any degree of certainty. I'm also inclined to believe that no-one in the new administration has the...again, I say ruthlessness...to pull it off. Of course, I'm thinking more about voluntary wedding than the kind of torment to which Angus was subjected, but still... I don't think the current leadership could or would do it.

As for outgunning the Amnion; perhaps so, but the stalemate will provide time, and even one near-C Amnion ship and/or passably human Amnioni could do enormous damage. Despite their slower and less efficient industry, the Amnion have an inherent advantage, in that they are effectively predators of the human species (indeed, every species, but humanity is the one that matters in this discussion). Humans simply cannot affect the Amnion on a fundamental level in the way the Amnion can affect humanity. The Amnion are, by nature, at an advantage. And they're gradually whittling away the few advantages humanity does possess, with their increasingly human-like creations - not just physically but mentally, like Marc Vestabule.