Kevin's Watch

Linamia sounds like a perfect description of the relationship between Covenant and Mhoram, and even of the one between Covenant and Foamfollower.

Sad to think that the two closest friendships in TC's life were with men from another world.

aliantha wrote:Linamia sounds like a perfect description of the relationship between Covenant and Mhoram, and even of the one between Covenant and Foamfollower.

Sad to think that the two closest friendships in TC's life were with men from another world.

Yeah, true. Seeing how no-one from the Land truly understood what leprosy really was and how dangerous it can be. They just saw that Covenant was ill in the manner they best understood. Thus had no reason to be afraid to be close to him. They feared/respected him and his white-gold/wild-magic but not him personally on the human level.

It becomes quite clear in the Second Chrons that Bannor developed a deep respect for TC over time. That respect is shown quite clearly by the reactions of his people, the Haruchai, have to him as soon as they see him in Revelstone, and thereafter.

Yes... I agree... Because Bannor did tell the story didn't he? So that's where the Haruchai's respect comes from in the Second Chronicles; From Bannor.

Bannor must've told one heck of a story to have it remembered with such clarity and detail 3500 years later. I believe that Bannor at the very least had a boatload of respect for TC, and also knew that he had the character to "redeem my people".

Think about this too, Bannor passed that respect on to the rest of the Haruchai, as seen in Brinn's plea;

"Will you set us free".

For a race as proud as the Haruchai, think what a question like that must have taken.

Yeah, I thought it was amazing how they depended on TC straight away... But I sometimes wonder if Bannor had only asked that of Covenant because there was no other help for the Haruchai...

Seafoam Understone wrote:

Darth Revan wrote: But do you think he loved him? As the others of Covenants dead, except Lena and co, did? Foamfoller loved him, So did Mhoram and Elena... but did Bannor... there was recognition between them... sure... but I think no love in the purest sense of the word...

If Bannor had any love for Covenant then it would be (imo) the type of love that can be shared between two men, which is nothing more than a deep respect for the other. The type of love that can be shared and expressed between two brothers. Nothing gay or sexual or anything romantically inclined. Just a deep abiding respect. Covenant "defeated" Lord Foul which was more than what anyone else could've done at the time. I'm sure that while the Bloodguard (as a whole) were cheated of the opportunity to "fight Corruption" in person, the fact that this guy, a stranger to the Land and one who continually said he didn't believe in it, ended up defeating Foul, the Bloodguard definitely had to respect the man.
By doing so Covenant probably was the only human being that measured up to the Haurchai standards.

I dunno if the dead of Andelain were exactly representatives of those who "loved" Covenant but more so rather of those who meant the most to him. In WGW Covenant said

Mhoram was my friend. Elena loved me. Bannor protected me. But Foamfollower made the difference." (thanks to dlbpharmd replying to a different post)

Covenant was warned that it was a good idea that Linden didn't enter Andelain the first time around because she "...would raise grim shades here..." obviously meaning

Spoiler

her mother and father

thinking about that does send a mental shiver up my spine if SRD decided to write that in.

So are we gonna have a dissection of each character's interaction with Covenant? Huh? Are we? Huh? Huh?

Remember that in Andelain, one's dead come to them. It is not the love felt by the dead themselves that make them appear to the living, but it is the importance of thedead to the livig which impels them to apprear!

I think love or respect to Bannor was irrelevant. In fact, I would surmise that given the fact that TC and Bannor had become indescernable (recall the marrowmeld sculpture), that Bannors feelings (such as they would be) would be as paradoxical as TC himself. Respect and revulsion; affection AND disgust.

Perhaps... Maybe we need to learn more of the Haruchai before we can find out what lies in Bannor's heart...

Darth Revan wrote:The Bloodguard do not forgive... Thus he cannot be redeemed...

I like what you say here Darth. You seem to at least be impressed by their black&white view of everything.

I think that what set the stage for Banner

Spoiler

and the rest of the bloodguard to give up the vow wasn't simply one thing the bending of a bloodguard's will by the illearth stone

, but rather that it was a culmination of many things from the past & Thomas Covenant brings out even more things that have bothered the bloodguard and of which they have not complained about of course, nevertheless it is certainly emotional pain.

This is a matter of life cannot be black & white. This is why a Christian cannot live perfectly. Why God made a universe where people fail & angels fell from heaven. It is why, although the sun is a shining beacon of stability, it could kill everything on the planet if there were two or more successive X-class flares of the magnitude we saw last year.

www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/04/04/solar.storm/
www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/11/06/solar.flare/

We just recently discovered that such a flare will warp the magnetic field and that this field takes time to recover. There are theories that the atmosphere of Mars was completely blown away by such a series of events.

spacescience.com/headlines/y2001/ast31jan_1.htm

I guess what I'm saying is that nothing in the universe is black&white, except maybe the Creator of the universe. But everything inside of it has shades of gray. Even Bannor could not remain entirely bitter toward Covenant,

Spoiler

just as he could not hold his vow any longer to the bloodguard.

Nothing is completely right or completely wrong. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I think Bannor did come to love Covenant.

Spoiler

Not in a normal way because unlike Morham, he had lived for more than 2,000 years without love.

But in his own way, as much as he could, he loved Covenant because although we all hated him at times, he was very brave to fight his personal demons and to unveil Bannor's own personal demons to himself. I think that Covenant also loved Bannor, especially at the end, because Bannor became human to him.

ZefaLefeLaH wrote:I think that Covenant also loved Bannor, especially at the end, because Bannor became human to him.

This is an amazing discussion. Just one of many here at the Watch.

I cannot say that I agree with the previous assessment. I do not at all feel that Covenant's love was born of Bannor's "humanity," rather that it is born of Covenant's own realization of what Bannor had done for him throughout the Chronicles.
Regardless of Covenant's ineptitude, Bannor was there like a guardian angel, at times finishing what Covenant could not (placing his ring on the Staff of Law, for example). Bannor saved Covenant's life more times than I can count. Had it not been for Bannor (or Lena, or Atiaran, or Foamfollower, or Mhoram....the list goes on and on, but that's another topic.), Covenant would not be remembered as a hero of the Land.

But I think the one thing that is more important than anything else is the unspoken fact that here was a man that stayed by Covenant's side, a man whose loyalty did not falter, a man who was not repulsed by Covenant's leprosy. In his own world, Covenant was pushed out of a society that hated the disease and therefore the man. He was abandoned and rejected by all. He was alone. In a way, his experience with Linden in the Second Chronicles mirrors his experience with Bannor. Linden was the first woman he met that was not repulsed by his disease. And Covenant loved her.
Just as Covenant loved Bannor. He couldn't help but feel a fondness for a man who stood by his side, even if that man did not understand the real Covenant.

Love because of his humanity? Perhaps. But I think it goes much deeper.

Nothing constructive to say really, just want to compliment Durris on a truely awesome post, and to remark on how true ZefaLefeLaH's comment is.

ZefaLefeLaH wrote: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Your Enemy is never Evil in his own eyes.

--Avatar

A thought: might Cov relate to the Bloodguard, almost wanting to be part of them, seeing as he tends to act like an only child and we don't know of any parents or extended family?

...does that make sense?

amanibhavam wrote:I think Bannor did not like Covenant too much, certainly not at the beginning, but he understood him more than most in the Land. He was a man who knew about extreme passion and loyalty. TC was a very loyal man, although his loyalties lay elsewhere at the beginning, not with the Land.
And remember, Bannor and Covenant were modelled into one sculpture. They had a lot in common.

almost exaclty along the same line i was thinking...

The type of love that some might argue Christians (including the Apostles) ought to feel (ought to have felt) towards their Lord is the type of love Bannor could've felt for Covenant, especially since Covenant is the savior of the world in this story. (I'm not saying this except as a sort of literary example; I read somewhere the the Jesus of Mark or Matthew may be regarded as one of the two greatest literary figures or something, so what I'm now posting may be as much as to say something along that line.)

I think Bannor was always pained by the loss of his life, and somewhat regretted the forging of the Vow. I mean, he lost his wife, his home, and except for 500 people, who he might not have even liked, all contact with his people or his heritage. And think about it: He would have heard of his wife's death when one of the Bloodguard died and got replaced. So his entire life since the Vow was pain, atop pain, atop pain. In the same kind of way, Covenant's life was affected by his leprosy, costing him his wife, his community, and all his friends. Both, in similar ways, feel responsible for their former wives pain. Bannor knows he is, and TC thinks he is, but the effect is the same, really. They both feel exiled from their society. And they both have lost any normal way to express emotions because of it. I think they respected each other because they knew the odd strength/endurance that comes of surviving such soul wracking pain, and they could respect each others responses to their self-inflicte pain. Technically, TC's leprosy wasn't his fault, but he always feels like it is. So Bannor doesn't get it immediately, while TC doesn't know the story of Bannor's losses. Once they do, they both start to respect each other, and get along, kinda. Especially after the whole Mount Thunder/Quest thing is over, and Bannor knows he is a friend to the Land.

Sherman Landlearner wrote:I think Bannor was always pained by the loss of his life, and somewhat regretted the forging of the Vow. I mean, he lost his wife, his home, and except for 500 people, who he might not have even liked, all contact with his people or his heritage. And think about it: He would have heard of his wife's death when one of the Bloodguard died and got replaced. So his entire life since the Vow was pain, atop pain, atop pain. In the same kind of way, Covenant's life was affected by his leprosy, costing him his wife, his community, and all his friends. Both, in similar ways, feel responsible for their former wives pain. Bannor knows he is, and TC thinks he is, but the effect is the same, really. They both feel exiled from their society. And they both have lost any normal way to express emotions because of it.