How did Bannor feel about Covenant?

[Revan]

I've aways wondered this... How did Bannor fell about Thomas? Did he love him? I mean he was among his dead... Was that because Covenant cared about him? Hmmmm.....

[amanibhavam]

I think Bannor did not like Covenant too much, certainly not at the beginning, but he understood him more than most in the Land. He was a man who knew about extreme passion and loyalty. TC was a very loyal man, although his loyalties lay elsewhere at the beginning, not with the Land.
And remember, Bannor and Covenant were modelled into one sculpture. They had a lot in common.

[Furls Fire]

"They both require absolute answers" --High Lord Mhoram, The Power that Preserves

[Guest]

Bannor and Covenant travel a great distance toward each other over the course of the first three books. They start from a deep mutual distrust that strives against, and eventually is conquered by [says Tan-Haruchail to?], an equally deep (though initially reluctant) mutual recognition.

Bannor initially distrusted Covenant, not only because Covenant's intentions were unknown, not visible by health-sense, and potentially hostile, but also because Bannor's assignment to Covenant contained an inherent double bind. Mhoram explains to Covenant during their first meeting,

Left to the dictates of their Vow, the Bloodguard would slay you instantly if you raised your hand against any Lord--yes, against any inhabitant of Revelstone. But the Council of Lords has commanded you to their care. Rather than break that command--rather than permit any harm to befall you--Bannor or any Bloodguard would lay down his life in your defense.

So Bannor is obligated under the Vow to be ready to kill Covenant--and under obedience to be ready to die for Covenant. This is the first of the many conflicts of Bloodguard loyalty that will come to a head around TC.

When Bannor tells Covenant how the Vow came to be, Covenant finds the story harder to dismiss as delusion than much else in his experience of the Land:

In his confusion, he tried to tell himself that what he heard was like the sensitivity of his nerves, further proof of the Land's impossibility. But it did not feel like proof. It moved him as if he had learned that Bannor suffered from a rare form of leprosy.

Bannor's experience of Vow-induced survival in the absence of or at the expense of many of the things that make survival valuable mirrors Covenant's experience of the discipline that helps him survive leprosy but removes everything except survival from life. Though Bannor never explicitly says to Covenant the refrain of his descendants in the Second Chronicles, "You are not alone," his entire history and being says that to Covenant. And Covenant hardly knows what to do with it, but can't quite refuse it.

Under Kiril Threndor, Bannor comes to TC's rescue:

Covenant felt such a surge of relief that he wanted to hug Bannor. After his long lightless ordeal, he felt suddenly rescued, almost redeemed.

A redemption he will eventually reciprocate. "Redeem my people. Their plight is an abomination. And they will serve you well."

But his gruff voice belied his emotion. "What the hell took you so long?"
.......
With startling casualness, Bannor replied that he had landed badly after killing the ur-vile, and had lost consciousness...."The flame of your staff revealed you," he continued. "I chose to follow." ...When he spoke again, his foreign Haruchai tone held a note of final honesty. "I withheld my aid, awaiting proof that you are not a foe of the Lords."
Something in the selfless and casual face that Bannor turned toward death communicated itself to Covenant. He answered without rancor, "You picked a fine time to test me."
"The Bloodguard know doubt. We require to be sure."

I haven't quite figured out just what in the scene before this exchange convinces Bannor that Covenant is worthy of rescue.

And when Covenant does choose to use his ring to call the Fire-Lions, he freezes with fear before reaching the Staff of Law. Bannor responds to his unvoiced cry for help:

[Covenant's] hand crossed half the distance and stopped, clutched in unfingered impotence at the empty air.
Ah! he cried. Help me!
"We are the Bloodguard." Bannor's voice was almost inaudible..."We cannot permit this end."
Firmly, he took Covenant's hand and placed it on the Staff of Law, midway between Prothall's straining knuckles.

Bannor can see, through health-sense, that Covenant now wills to help the quest; this vindicates his decision to rescue him earlier. The act of bridging Covenant's last gap of inaction is one of Bannor's many efforts to insure that Kevin's default is never reenacted.

Perhaps because Unbelief itself entails a double bind, Covenant identifies with the Bloodguard's dilemma regarding the Desecration. Bannor tacitly perceives this and invites him to hear Lord Kevin's Lament performed early in TIW:

Then Covenant felt that he understood. Kevin, he nodded to himself. Of course the Bloodguard wanted to hear this song. How could they be less than keenly interested in anything which might help them to comprehend Kevin Landwaster?
......
It was not surprising that the Bloodguard wanted to hear this song--or that Bannor had asked Covenant to come hear it also.

In "The Spoiled Plains" in TPTP (do take a look at Fist and Faith's splendid Dissection of that chapter if you haven't seen it!), Bannor challenges Covenant to the same renunciation of vengeance that Bannor has achieved.

The helplessness of Covenant's pain came out as anger. His own voice shook as he muttered to Bannor, "If you say one word to blame him [Foamfollower], I swear--"
Then he stopped himself. He had accused Bannor unjustly too often in the past; the Bloodguard had long ago earned better treatment than this from him. But Bannor only shrugged.

Ah, that eloquent, quintessentially Haruchai shrug!

"...Corruption wears many faces. Blame is a more enticing face than others, but it is none the less a mask for the Despiser."
His speech made Covenant look at him closely. Something came up between them that had never been laid to rest, neither on Gallows Howe nor in the Ramen covert. It wore the aspect of habitual Bloodguard distrust, but as he met Bannor's eyes, Covenant sensed that the issue was a larger one.
Without inflection, Bannor went on: "Hate and vengeance are also masks."

I could quote the entire remainder of this chapter, but I'll be content with this climactic bit:

[Bannor is speaking.] "The deepest wish of the Bloodguard was to fight the Despiser in his home, pure service against Corruption. This desire misled. I have put aside such things. My proper place now is with the Ranyhyn and their Ramen, in the exile of the mountains."
Covenant seemed to hear an anguish behind the inflectionless tone of the speech--an anguish that hurt him in the same way that this man always hurt him. "Ah, Bannor," he sighed. "Are you so ashamed of what you were?"
Bannor cocked a white eyebrow at the question, as though it came close to the truth. "I am not shamed," he said distinctl. "But I am saddened that so many centuries were required to teach us the limits of our worth. We went too far, in pride and folly. Mortal men should not give up wives and sleep and death for any service, lest the face of failure become too abhorrent to be endured." He paused almost as if he were hesitating, then concluded, "Have you forgotten that High Lord Elena carved our faces as one in her last marrowmeld work?"

I never read this without something turning over inside...Bannor's hesitation itself makes visible the depth of the bond that he cannot acknowledge any more directly than this.

Covenant's response, "both an assertion and a promise," echoes his earlier response to the dying First Mark Tuvor, who asked "True?" and could not say whether he was asking for a promise or a judgment.

Bannor had moved him. His response was both an assertion and a promise. "I will never forget."

[Durris]

Oops! That was me, just in case it wasn't obvious.

[Seafoam Understone]

For a second I thought I was reading a dissection! Heh That (Durris) was a foine foine way to answer the inital question. At first I thought it might've been Fist N Faith but t'was you.

Me thinks you (and Darth) might have started something here. A dissection of each character's interaction with Covenant.

Covenant has a different effect upon a lot of the people of the Land (and in our world as well ... i.e. Linden, Berenford, etc.). I think it would be a fun and educational thread for each character that Covenant meets/interacts. Atiaran, Mhorham, Elena, Lena, Trilock, Saltheart Foamfollower, The First, Pitchwife and so forth, even Lord Foul

[Durris]

Seafoam Understone wrote:

For a second I thought I was reading a dissection! Heh That (Durris) was a foine foine way to answer the inital question. At first I thought it might've been Fist N Faith but t'was you.

Thank you, Rocksibling! *bows*

It's an honor to be mistaken for Fist any day of the week.

[Fist and Faith]

I was just about to thank Seafoam for the compliment!! Posts like that are what make the Watch the best site on the internet!! Thank you, Durris!!

Left to the dictates of their Vow, the Bloodguard would slay you instantly if you raised your hand against any Lord--yes, against any inhabitant of Revelstone. But the Council of Lords has commanded you to their care. Rather than break that command--rather than permit any harm to befall you--Bannor or any Bloodguard would lay down his life in your defense.

So Bannor is obligated under the Vow to be ready to kill Covenant--and under obedience to be ready to die for Covenant. This is the first of the many conflicts of Bloodguard loyalty that will come to a head around TC.

I've never understood this. Why are the Bloodguard taking orders from the Lords? They aren't hired help. They didn't ask Kevin if he wanted their service. They didn't ask how their intent could best be served, and, in fact, I think their methods are sometimes counterproductive to keeping the Lords alive. So how come they're being commanded? I think the relationship that the Bloodguard set up when they took the Vow is more accurate in TIW, War Council, when Elena said:

"Morin, you are the First Mark. You will command the Bloodguard as your Vow requires. Please assign to Warmark Troy every Bloodguard who can be spared from the defense of Revelstone."

Bannor's experience of Vow-induced survival in the absence of or at the expense of many of the things that make survival valuable mirrors Covenant's experience of the discipline that helps him survive leprosy but removes everything except survival from life.

Wow, does THAT sum things up!!!

Though Bannor never explicitly says to Covenant the refrain of his descendants in the Second Chronicles, "You are not alone," his entire history and being says that to Covenant. And Covenant hardly knows what to do with it, but can't quite refuse it.

Yes, the Haruchai are ever difficult to refuse. (Also difficult to live up to, as Linden points out in WGW.)

But his gruff voice belied his emotion. "What the hell took you so long?"
.......
With startling casualness, Bannor replied that he had landed badly after killing the ur-vile, and had lost consciousness...."The flame of your staff revealed you," he continued. "I chose to follow." ...When he spoke again, his foreign Haruchai tone held a note of final honesty. "I withheld my aid, awaiting proof that you are not a foe of the Lords."
Something in the selfless and casual face that Bannor turned toward death communicated itself to Covenant. He answered without rancor, "You picked a fine time to test me."
"The Bloodguard know doubt. We require to be sure."

I haven't quite figured out just what in the scene before this exchange convinces Bannor that Covenant is worthy of rescue.

I think it's just that Bannor needed proof that Covenant was not working with Drool and Foul. He followed, waiting to see if Covenant and Drool would shake hands, laugh, and say, "It's working perfectly!" When that didn't happen, it was showtime!!

In "The Spoiled Plains" in TPTP

Thanks for bringing my favorite chapter to mind again!

But Bannor only shrugged.

Ah, that eloquent, quintessentially Haruchai shrug!

Indeed!

I never read this without something turning over inside...Bannor's hesitation itself makes visible the depth of the bond that he cannot acknowledge any more directly than this.

I love hearing you talk about this stuff!!

"I will never forget."

Nor will I.

*bows to Bannor. bows to Durris*

[Baradakas]

Wow, Durris! Wow, Fist! You two are awesome!


Guess there's little left to say!


I think he liked him in the end.

[Revan]

But do you think he loved him? As the others of Covenants dead, except Lena and co, did? Foamfoller loved him, So did Mhoram and Elena... but did Bannor... there was recognition between them... sure... but I think no love in the purest sense of the word...

[amanibhavam]

Maybe he did not love him. But love is not the only positive emotion in the world. There is also respect, sympathy, trust...

[caamora]

I think that Bannor expected Covenant to act in a certain way - with respect to others - and did not forgive him for his foul-ups. I think, in the end that Covenant redeemed himself in Bannor's eyes.

[Revan]

The Bloodguard do not forgive... Thus he cannot be redeemed...

[Furls Fire]

Great stuff everyone!! I sure miss being able to contribute to the more heady discussions here on the Watch!!

And Darth, I believe Bannor did forgive Thomas his failings. If he hadn't, he never would have trusted the Unbeliever to redeem the Haruchai being held by The Clave.

[Durris]

It's my impression, from the climactic speech in "The Spoiled Plains," that Bannor ended up forgiving all manner of beings for all manner of things. Not only Covenant for having not lived up to his standards at first (or was it Covenant's ambivalence that he most judged?) and Foamfollower for surviving his kin and not saving them, but Foul for destroying the Vow. Arguably even (what was more difficult still) Kevin, and (the very last purgatory) himself for surviving Kevin; how else could Bannor have forgone a last chance for expiation even if the need to do so was the known cause of Korik's fall?

He is the only Haruchai in history to have done this.

Until "Those Who Part" in the Second Chronicles. But that's another story, and with difficulty I refrain from launching into it here and now...

IMHO, Bannor did love Covenant when all was said and done. His demeanor in "The Spoiled Plains" shows the hesitancy, the shyness almost, that is his culture's characteristic way of handling a depth of feeling that would shatter under its own weight if made more explicit.

[Seafoam Understone]

Darth Revan wrote: But do you think he loved him? As the others of Covenants dead, except Lena and co, did? Foamfoller loved him, So did Mhoram and Elena... but did Bannor... there was recognition between them... sure... but I think no love in the purest sense of the word...

If Bannor had any love for Covenant then it would be (imo) the type of love that can be shared between two men, which is nothing more than a deep respect for the other. The type of love that can be shared and expressed between two brothers. Nothing gay or sexual or anything romantically inclined. Just a deep abiding respect. Covenant "defeated" Lord Foul which was more than what anyone else could've done at the time. I'm sure that while the Bloodguard (as a whole) were cheated of the opportunity to "fight Corruption" in person, the fact that this guy, a stranger to the Land and one who continually said he didn't believe in it, ended up defeating Foul, the Bloodguard definitely had to respect the man.
By doing so Covenant probably was the only human being that measured up to the Haurchai standards.

I dunno if the dead of Andelain were exactly representatives of those who "loved" Covenant but more so rather of those who meant the most to him. In WGW Covenant said

Mhoram was my friend. Elena loved me. Bannor protected me. But Foamfollower made the difference." (thanks to dlbpharmd replying to a different post)

Covenant was warned that it was a good idea that Linden didn't enter Andelain the first time around because she "...would raise grim shades here..." obviously meaning

Spoiler

her mother and father

thinking about that does send a mental shiver up my spine if SRD decided to write that in.

So are we gonna have a dissection of each character's interaction with Covenant? Huh? Are we? Huh? Huh?

[Fist and Faith]

I have not had such a relationship myself, but I believe there can be non-sexual/romantic love between two men that is more than a deep respect. I imagine there are friends that would die for each other, and I don't see that being the result of nothing more than deep respect.

I'm sure that while the Bloodguard (as a whole) were cheated of the opportunity to "fight Corruption" in person, the fact that this guy, a stranger to the Land and one who continually said he didn't believe in it, ended up defeating Foul, the Bloodguard definitely had to respect the man.

Very well said.

I dunno if the dead of Andelain were exactly representatives of those who "loved" Covenant but more so rather of those who meant the most to him.

Yeah, I agree.

So are we gonna have a dissection of each character's interaction with Covenant? Huh? Are we? Huh? Huh?

Oh man, that's a scary undertaking!! I can't imagine doing the initial post, as Durris did here!

[Durris]

Seafoam Understone wrote:

If Bannor had any love for Covenant then it would be (imo) the type of love that can be shared between two men, which is nothing more than a deep respect for the other. The type of love that can be shared and expressed between two brothers. Nothing gay or sexual or anything romantically inclined. Just a deep abiding respect.

And Fist and Faith wrote:

I have not had such a relationship myself, but I believe there can be non-sexual/romantic love between two men that is more than a deep respect. I imagine there are friends that would die for each other, and I don't see that being the result of nothing more than deep respect.

Ahhh, the limitations of language.

When I opined that Bannor "loved" Covenant, I was not thinking in the sexual or romantic sense, and I had forgotten that for many English-speakers the word "love" necessarily carries such connotations except when used in an explicitly familial context.

"Friendship" is a far more dilute word and concept in English than its nearest equivalents in some other times and cultures. The best example I can think of is another mythical one.

If anyone here has read Austin Tappan Wright's Islandia, there is no one word with all the meanings of "love" in English. There are four different ones. Amia is garden-variety friendship or liking; alia is love of place, family, and country; ania is love for a spouse; apia is sexual or romantic love short of generative permanent commitment.

When lin, "strong", is prefixed to amia, friendship, the result is more than the sum of its parts. A character defines it as "those strong friendships that are limited to two or three in a man's life."

I don't know how the differences between men and women play out in this area, but I do know by experience that linamia is to what we usually think of as friendship approximately as the strong nuclear force is to gravity.

Covenant and Bannor probably were too foreign to each other to have had linamia, but amidst the foreignness they understood each other too well to have been bound by respect only.

[Revan]

Great posts all... And excellent points

Though... I think that we need Xar's help to answer such a question...

[Nightraven]

I think Bannor had a kind of respect for TC. The kind of respect that happens between two people who have lost a lot of important things in their lives, and still find a way to march onward.

Bannor is one of my favorite characters of any book series. His internal strength truly matches his external strength. I find him noble and tragic.