Who Are The Good People?

[krycek]

The way i c it is there are no clear cut good or bad people in the gap, just people with good intentions and people without. Nick never tried to do anything good, morn on the other hand spent all her time trying to do what was right. but the most obvious good person in the whole series for me was dios, sure he's done some pretty shit things in the past but he's trying to take down the dragon for the good of all humanity (i've not finished yet, he's aboard calm horizons atm and angus etc have just gone to rescue him)

[Revan]

Min's just as good... and she would take the Dragon down if she knew how...

[duchess of malfi]

The one seemingly unimpeachable "good guy" in the series is Sixten Vertigus...

But as was previously pointed out, one of the primary themes of the series is redemption...and if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to be redeemed for...so the "good guys" to me are Morn, Mikka, Angus (as much as what he did to Morn in the Real Story makes me want to vomit), Vector, Warden Dios, etc. People who realize that they have done bad things and do their damndest to do better things...

And the "bad guys" are those who do not have any realization or caring of the harm they have done, and make no effort to do any better with themselves...people like Nick and Holt...

[Dragonlily]

I wonder if SRD was trying to make a point about human nature with the Gap. That no one is truly good or evil, just differing shades of grey.

SRD has said that he doesn't try to make points, he writes stories. That said, his stories have heroes who are not perfect by any means, but are trying to better themselves.

They also have characters like Hashi, whose idea of bettering himself is to outthink the universe. He is Machiavellian but winds up on the side of "goodness" due to Dios' influence. It's obvious SRD likes Hashi once he takes us inside his mind.

[duchess of malfi]

SRD also names Hashi as one of his favorite characters in the gradual interview...

[Dragonlily]

Understandable. Who else could operate in SRD's own range of intellect?

[Haruchai Dad]

The good people are the ones that oppose the Amnioni.

[Nathan]

There's no such thing as good (but that's not my point here, what I should really be saying is that no-one in the story is good). Everyone in the story does everything they do for their own benefit. Dios's reasons for wanting to destroy Holt Fasner are not a desire to save the human race but rather to atone for his own guilt. Nick's whole life leads towards getting his revenge on Sorus (I was really disappointed that he didn't achieve this, not because I liked him - although I understand everything he did, and felt a great deal of sympathy for him - but because Sorus deserved it), Min Donner's integrity isn't a conscious choice, it's just the way she is.
On the other hand it depends on what your definition of "good" is. If you consider "good" as being beneficial to others, or beneficial to the human race then there are characters that are undoubtedly "good". But that would be a superficial judgement.
I also believe that none of the characters are "bad" either, they are just the way they are.

[Revan]

Excellent post Nathan! You are completely right!

[Variol Farseer]

There's no such thing as good (but that's not my point here, what I should really be saying is that no-one in the story is good). Everyone in the story does everything they do for their own benefit. Dios's reasons for wanting to destroy Holt Fasner are not a desire to save the human race but rather to atone for his own guilt.

You're looking for 'good' and 'evil' in the wrong place. Warden is 'good', or at least capable of good, because he understands that what Holt is doing is evil, and feels guilty for participating in it. Holt is simply evil, because he doesn't understand and doesn't care. He doesn't give a tin whistle whom he harms or how much damage he does, as long as he and his 'vision' get to live for ever.

Warden's feeling guilt, and wanting to assuage it, does not mean that his actions are without moral character; it is the evidence of his moral character.

Nick's whole life leads towards getting his revenge on Sorus (I was really disappointed that he didn't achieve this, not because I liked him - although I understand everything he did, and felt a great deal of sympathy for him - but because Sorus deserved it), Min Donner's integrity isn't a conscious choice, it's just the way she is.

Believe me, people don't attain that extreme degree of integrity without conscious choice — a lifelong habit of making conscious choices. Even if you are born with the desire and the intention to have such integrity, it takes a lot of experience to make the kinds of hard choices that turn your intention into actions. Most people end up saying, 'Oh, to Sheol with it,' lower their standards, and lose their integrity. It's just easier to do, for all the damage it may cause in the long run. I've known a few people like Min, and I have enormous respect for them, because I know something about how hard it is to become such a person.

(On the other hand, I feel very little sympathy for Nick. He made his bed, and with exquisite fitness, he got to lie in it. He went on for years without caring whom else he destroyed; so what could be more appropriate than for him to destroy himself?)

On the other hand it depends on what your definition of "good" is. If youconsider "good" as being beneficial to others, or beneficial to the human race then there are characters that are undoubtedly "good". But that would be a superficial judgement.

There are definitions of 'good' that have nothing to do with 'being beneficial to others', but that are still rigorous, useful, and clear to the understanding. Philosophers have debated the details for millennia, but in general they do understand that. This is not the place for an elementary course in ethics, but here, at least, is a short definition of evil that many people find useful: 'Evil is the absence of empathy.'

I also believe that none of the characters are "bad" either, they are just the way they are.

If you're not 'good' or 'bad' but just 'are the way you are', why would you ever want to change? It's like travelling. If one place is just as good as another, why bother leaving home? You only travel because you understand that something you want or need to do can only be done in another place. And you only change the condition of your spirit if you understand that you are damaging yourself (and others, but that understanding comes later) by remaining as you are. Warden, Min, Morn, and even Angus acquired that understanding. Holt and Nick never did.

[Nathan]

You're looking for 'good' and 'evil' in the wrong place. Warden is 'good', or at least capable of good, because he understands that what Holt is doing is evil, and feels guilty for participating in it.

Exactly, not because Warden himself is good but because he feels guilty, it's part of what he is that he does what he does. He does what he does for no other reason than because it's what he wants to do (or what he needs himself to do)

Warden's feeling guilt, and wanting to assuage it, does not mean that his actions are without moral character; it is the evidence of his moral character.

Good point. On the other hand though, moral character does not make a "good" person (although moral character seems to be only a different way of saying "the ability to feel responsible for one's actions" with a stronger sense of favourable emotional bias to it). Since it is the very same force that drives "bad" people to do the things they do. For example Nick feels responsible for having been tricked and mutilated by Sorus so he tries to get revenge. (thereby correcting the mistake, or coming as close as possible) How is that different from Dios feeling responsible for helping put Fasner where he is and so trying to remove him? (again correcting the mistake)

Believe me, people don't attain that extreme degree of integrity without conscious choice — a lifelong habit of making conscious choices.

This doesn't contradict my ideas as much as it seems. Upbringing and other external factors determine what kind of person anyone becomes. People are the way they are because of the things that happen to them through their life. When I said Min Donner's integrity wasn't a conscious choice what I meant was that she didn't make the conscious choice to have such integrity, not that the choices she makes because of her integrity weren't conscious. These are not the same thing. The reason she makes the conscious choices to do the things her integrity dictates she must is a result of the way she is (or rather the experiences that shaped her as a human being). I'm not saying it's any less of an achievement, but anything anyone ever does, conscious or otherwise is the only thing they can ever do. Every decision anyone ever makes or will make is the decision they always would have, not because of predestination, but because everyone is created by the things they experience.

If you're not 'good' or 'bad' but just 'are the way you are', why would you ever want to change?

Because you're not happy with the way you are, besides, not wanting to chance the way you are doesn't mean that you won't change the way you are, or external influences won't change the way you are. Every experience changes the way you are, just because the changes may not be visible, or they may not be obvious doesn't mean they are not there.

And you only change the condition of your spirit if you understand that you are damaging yourself (and others, but that understanding comes later) by remaining as you are.

Here is where we most certainly differ in opinion. Spirit? What exactly is that? I don't mean to be rude but I don't believe in the existence of a spirit (at least as I understand you to mean it, a conscience/soul kind of thing. Please correct me if I misunderstood you). For me believing in a spirit would be self-contradictory. Warden, Min etc. did the things they did because they were who they were. The people their experiences had turned them into left them with only one way they could do things. Perhaps they realised they were damaging themselves and others, but still, the choices they then made were only made the way they were because they were the people making them.

[danlo]

Perhaps we should take this to The Close (the Philosophy/Religion forum) but how exactly and why is believing a a soul selfcontradictory?

[Nathan]

It would be self-contradictory because I believe that people are just the product of their past experiences. If a spirit is a part of someone that can decide what they were/did apart from their base nature as dictated by their experiences, and for a spirit to be worth anything it must be able to do this, then it would contradict my previous point that all actions are only products of past experience.

[Loredoctor]

i think alot of what SRD is getting at it in the Gap books is that guilty people, or those who seek redemption are good. Or capable of good. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

[GREEK TRAGEDY]

I believe SRD confirms this, saying that his characters needed these stories or some other tripe.