Kevin's Watch

Yeah! What the heck does Foul know!! *grumble*

Fist and Faith wrote:Heh. I just skimmed through the Iliad, looking for various parts. Among them, Paris shooting Achilles - the whole "Achilles heel" thing. Funny thing is, that doesn't happen in the book. I don't think I have an abridged version.

Achilles' mother was a Oceanid (sp?) or sea-nymph named Thetis, who was one of Zeus' many mistresses. However, a prophecy declared that she would bare a son who was greater than his father, so Zeus gave Thetis to Peleus (I think that's his name, not that it matters). She was pretty pissed off about this and so she kept changing shape to allude her new husband, but no matter hwat shape she took, be it fire, water, eagle or serpent, Peleus would not let go. In the end his determination made her fall in love with him (typical Greek myth cop-out) and they were married and had a son, Achilles. Now, as a daughter of the Titan Okeanos (Zeus' uncle), Thetis would go to Olympus when she died. Achilles, however, would go to the underworld like any good mortal. So, in order to "fix" this situation, his mother dipped in the river Styx, by which the Gods of Olympus took their oaths, in order to render his flesh invulnerable. This was successful, and his flesh became invulnerable, except for his heel, where Thetis held him.

Phew. I hope that helps.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Thanks vs. I knew the general story, about the dipping and Achilles' mom, but it's great to know the detail. I'm just surprised I knew as much as I did, since it's not in the Iliad. Unless it's all mentioned in there somewhere, which I'll find in the next few days as I read. (I know, it's a short book, and should only take hours to read. But Chronic Fatigue Syndrome isn't as wonderful as it sounds. ) Like I said, it's been a very long time since I read it, but I don't remember any of that being mentioned.

But as a friend of mine once said, if I had only one little vulnerable spot on my body, I'd have it protected like you wouldn't believe!! I'd have the back of my boot armored with iron and diamonds!

variol son wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:Heh. I just skimmed through the Iliad, looking for various parts. Among them, Paris shooting Achilles - the whole "Achilles heel" thing. Funny thing is, that doesn't happen in the book. I don't think I have an abridged version.

Achilles' mother was a Oceanid (sp?) or sea-nymph named Thetis, who was one of Zeus' many mistresses. However, a prophecy declared that she would bare a son who was greater than his father, so Zeus gave Thetis to Peleus (I think that's his name, not that it matters). She was pretty pissed off about this and so she kept changing shape to allude her new husband, but no matter hwat shape she took, be it fire, water, eagle or serpent, Peleus would not let go. In the end his determination made her fall in love with him (typical Greek myth cop-out) and they were married and had a son, Achilles. Now, as a daughter of the Titan Okeanos (Zeus' uncle), Thetis would go to Olympus when she died. Achilles, however, would go to the underworld like any good mortal. So, in order to "fix" this situation, his mother dipped in the river Styx, by which the Gods of Olympus took their oaths, in order to render his flesh invulnerable. This was successful, and his flesh became invulnerable, except for his heel, where Thetis held him.

Phew. I hope that helps.

Sum sui generis
Vs

Aha! I knew it! Thanks, VS

I agree about armouring your one weak spot...you certainly wouldn't run around in sandals. But I've never understood Achilles' death - he died from a wound to the heel...surely a sticking plaster and a bit of TCP would have sorted that out?

So anyway, there's my objection to Troy - it's been 21st Century-ised... If I go to see a Greek myth, I want gods and monsters and people murdering their relatives and whatnot!

CovJr, I'm pretty sure it was a poison arrow to the heel that killed him, but I dunno.

Hmm, I just checked my nearest Greek Mythology book, and all it says is that the arrow was guided by Apollo - I suppose a divine arrow might sting a bit

Apollo was wiping out the Greeks with arrows at the beginning of the Iliad. He shot them, and they died of pestilence. Maybe he, uh, pestilenced Paris' arrow.

Hey, what's with the Iliad being only a part of the Trojan War anyway? (Kind of like the Bhagavad Gita being only a part of the Mahabharata.) Maybe Homer fleshed out some of the myths, just for fun? But the rest was fun too. I really liked the part where Odysseus wanted to stay home, because he was well acquainted with war, and wanted no part of it. So he pretended to be crazy, sowing the beach with salt. Heh. But whoever it was threw Odysseus' baby into the path of the plow, forcing him to prove that he was sane by not just running the baby over. (Seems to me that insane about one thing doesn't mean you have to be insane about everything, but it's their story. ) And Odysseus swore revenge on the man. I don't remember how, but he got his revenge. Maybe he recommended that guy for a suicide mission? That rings a bell.

A pretty good (ie entertaining) retelling of the Trojan War from the POV of a Trojan woman is Firebrand by Marion Zimmer Bradley...and a very good recent use of the Trojan War is in Dan Simmons's science fiction novel Ilium...

And my favorite of all of the ancient Greek lit I had to read in college was about the aftermath of the Trojan War...the Oresteia by Aeschylus.


I would really like to go see the movie Troy if I can find the time. It would be cool to see what I studied so intensely back at the U.

Fist and Faith wrote:Thanks vs. I knew the general story, about the dipping and Achilles' mom, but it's great to know the detail.

Yeah, sorry if that sounded a little priggish. Greek mythology used to be a passion of mine, and I hate it when movies get it wrong!

Sum sui generis
Vs

Didn't sound priggish at all.

I try to view things another way. Movies are a world/mythology/business/entity all their own. Whatever they have to do to make a movie into a glorious experience is fine by me. Maybe most wouldn't describe Troy that way, but I abso-freakin'-lutely describe Amadeus that way. One of the Best Picture winners that I actually agree with. What an extraordinary work!!!

But I have my BA in Music History, and I'm here to tell you, Amadeus is no closer to historical accuracy than Troy is to being faithful to the myths. But it's not a documentary. It's job is not to educate, beyond a few basics anyway, but to give me a movie experience that makes my jaw drop. If the two conflict for some reason (Jackson talked about all the stuff he had to cut from LOTR days or weeks after saying, "THIS part, at least, will NEVER be cut!"), then the movie must do what it must do.

Anyway, if Greek mythology is anything like Norse, each region, and time period, changed the myths a little, put different gods above others, and all that. Norse myths are so difficult to follow in certain ways.

It was interesting how they did the entire movie without the gods! If they indeed make on Odyssey movie, as it is alluded too since Odysseus is the narrator (only at the beginning and the end), how will they ever accomplish this feat in that movie as well?

Well Sean Bean was a good choice. He could pull it off. Who knows, maybe they are planning it.

This film was a good idea that was let down by a poor story-line and weak characters in my opinion. Wasn't a very good all round film.

I finally did see it this weekend. Damm cool! I love Ajax and Sean Bean was a killer Odyseus. That guy who played Priam, Mhory!!??!! Peter O'Toole one of the greast actors of our time!!!??? The guy who played Armaggedon played the coward-king to a tee. I was impressed by Brad Pitt damm did he workout for the role or what !??! And thanks again Brad, Tam was so taken by your nude scenes that I'm a brand new man these days (if you know what I mean **howls at moon**)

danlo wrote:I finally did see it this weekend. Damm cool! I love Ajax and Sean Bean was a killer Odyseus. That guy who played Priam, Mhory!!??!! Peter O'Toole one of the greast actors of our time!!!???

Yup. All did a great job!! (What was the movie where Peter said, "I don't trust watches. One hand is shorter than the other.")

danlo wrote:The guy who played Armaggedon played the coward-king to a tee.

I also liked the guy who played Agamemnon.

danlo wrote:I was impressed by Brad Pitt damm did he workout for the role or what !??! And thanks again Brad, Tam was so taken by your nude scenes that I'm a brand new man these days (if you know what I mean **howls at moon**)

Ah, my friend! I am very happy at your good fortune!!

Fist and Faith wrote:

danlo wrote:The guy who played Armaggedon played the coward-king to a tee.

I also liked the guy who played Agamemnon.

he's name is Brain Cox... I thought this was a great film. nad have every intention of reading the books on it. Can anyone tell me where to start? the Illad? (sp?)

Finally got around to watching this the other day, having initially not bothered because a friend told me it wasn't very good, and throughouly enjoyed it. It looked fantastic, and I thought the emotional issues were well addressed in what could have so easily been another swords and sandals action-fest. Good performances all round from a very strong cast, Eric Bana continues to impress (he's far too good to play Bond, I think) and I even liked Orlando Bloom's Paris. Was Paris an archer in the myth? I think the film makes good sense of the character: he's not really a coward, he just isn't the kind of warrior that Hector is. It makes even more sense that, if Troy's archers are the best in the world, that one of the princes would be a good shot.

The way I viewed Achilles death was that the first arrow through the heel took away his invulnerability and that the subsequent arrows to the chest killed him. I know this isn't consistent with the myth, but it's how it looked to me.

Is it out on dvd now?? I'll get it tomorrow if it is!

I don't remember if Paris was a good archer in the myths, but he shot Achilles in the heel there, too. Could be one of the Olympians guided the arrow in the myth.

When I was Christmas shopping I asked if this was out, and was told it would be on Jan 4.

I know it is out in the UK already (has been for a couple of weeks I think)
I finally got around to watching this a couple of days ago and was very impressed! I had been told some of the facts had been distorted to some degree, but not having read the book enabled me to enjoy it without having something to compare it to. I am normally wary of Hollywood adaptions of books into film.