Kevin's Watch

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Maybe it's in reference to their "collective thought".
I don't have the book in front of me but...
In the One Tree while they were guest of the Kemper and Lady Alif(?) put Brinn(?) to sleep with that powder the other Haruchai who were sleeping were "roused" when they lost contact with thier fallen Haruchai comrades.

While Haruchai is awake anywhere in the world they do not sleep.
Maybe the Ramen are aware of this collective ability.

Hows that for a stretch?

ooooOOOoooo! That's a good theory. Their mind keeps going and hearing and thinking and whatnot even in unconciousness? Damn I'm jealous of them now... what I woudn't give to have my brain going over homework while sleeping. Save on study-time!

dlbpharmd wrote:The Haruchai did not sleep in the 2nd Chronicles. It was not just the Vow per se; instead it seems that they can forego sleep at will.

That's true. But on this occasion, I'm inclined to agree that it's a Bloodguard reference. My reason? The Ramen kept addressing Stave as "Bloodguard".

CovenantJr wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:The Haruchai did not sleep in the 2nd Chronicles. It was not just the Vow per se; instead it seems that they can forego sleep at will.

That's true. But on this occasion, I'm inclined to agree that it's a Bloodguard reference. My reason? The Ramen kept addressing Stave as "Bloodguard".

I had always thought that they were just using a kind of "title" like how in the 2nd chrons, the Haruchai kept addressing TC as ur-Lord even tho there AREN'T any more Lords. The Ramen were just using the title they had in the past.

Perhaps, but the Second Chrons Haruchai sought to honour TC with his title, whereas the Ramen sought at every opportunity to deride and criticise Stave. I take "Sleepless One" as an insult of sorts.

Eryne wrote:

CovenantJr wrote:

dlbpharmd wrote:The Haruchai did not sleep in the 2nd Chronicles. It was not just the Vow per se; instead it seems that they can forego sleep at will.

That's true. But on this occasion, I'm inclined to agree that it's a Bloodguard reference. My reason? The Ramen kept addressing Stave as "Bloodguard".

I had always thought that they were just using a kind of "title" like how in the 2nd chrons, the Haruchai kept addressing TC as ur-Lord even tho there AREN'T any more Lords. The Ramen were just using the title they had in the past.

Thinking on this again I do see the Ramen calling the Haruchai "Bloodguard" as a total insult.
The Ramen are pointing out the Haruchai's *failed* arrogance in the past by calling them that.
Perhaps trying to tell that that they are setting themselves for the same failure in the present.
(this view is later vindicated by the Ranyhim)

Yeah, i agree that he names the Ramen call the masters are meant purely as insults. Hell, they spent the entire book arguing back and forth anways. Like a couple of kids. The Haruchai are too caught up in Win or Fail that they are blind to the most obvious things. The only thing I have against the Ramen was brought up in the new book. They just abandoned the Land to care for ranhyn, except for the first book LFB, they really didn't do a lot to aid. Too caught up in caring for the great Horses when i get the distinct impression that after the slaughter of the Ranhyn ended, they didn't need a lot of looking after. They are more creatures of Earthpower than i first thought.

I for one see the Masters wisdom. This part of the story carries a lot of political and social undertones... and goes exactly with Covenant's big idea about guilt. That purity is innocence and power is guilt.

By making the Land helpless and ignorant, the Masters hoped that such sterility would render Corruption innert. On the surface, it's an incredibly genius plan... but because they are Haruchai, they lack one thing to effectively combat Despite. They lack impurity.

Because it is only with impurity, two sides available to the coin, and the freedom of choice between innocence and guilt, that Despite can possibly be beaten. Although these traits also carry more risk and might possibly empower Despite... it is within that delicate balance that the eye of the paradox can be found to overcome anything.

The Chronicles repeatedly express this idea of impurity. The Haruchai's attempts to combat Corruption and keep any sort of Vow are just one example, white gold itself is an impure metal.

Because the Haruchai strive for such purity, they effectively make themselves sterile against the Despiser and his machinations.

Boy, am I really going to have to disagree on this one. The Masters reasons for stripping away the Land's history and such is that they will have nothing at all to do with Earthpower. To them, the earthpower has been the root of ALL the trouble..even from the very beginning. They don't come right out and say it directly, but the underlying feeling is that "humans" cannot control their own inner despiser and therefore eventually fall to the exact same fate as has befallen others. And the key to that has been the Earthpower.

On the other part of the Masters fighting Despite. The Masters do not use lore, weapons, etc. They are the Haruchai. They suffice. However, taken at it's basic level, there is NO Master capable of defeating an enemy using power. The Masters themselves admit it in the latest book when the Demondim are storming Revelstone. They KNOW, inside themselves, that they do NOT suffice. Being Haruchai, does that make them listen to reason? Nope. We have all seen the one-mindedness of the Bloodguard many times over.

The ONLY way to beat (if) Lord Foul is not with fist to fist tactics but with a use of power. It really depends what kind of power and how it is used. SRD will have a new and terrifying way using Covenant/Avery in the next three books.

BTW: I DO see what the Haruchai MEANT to do with their oppression of the truth. I see what they hoped to accomplish. However, they fail to see that they have weakened the Land almost beyond hope if they fall. They seem to think the Earthpower in the land, inert, will be enough to resist despite on it's own. They even said the exact same thing when the Staff of Law was brought back. They said, "UNUSED, this will be a great source..." We all know Earthpower by itself cannot resist Despite. How do we know this? What kept Lord Foul "alive" after the Desecration and Covenant's defeat? Even Foul said he had to resort to the Earthpower. Plus the Sunbane was able to warp the earthpower itself. Earthpower, without someone to shape and control it, cannot "resist" at all. It took Forestal Hile Troy to keep Andelain free for so many long years. So, the Masters are simply wrong in their assumptions. I can see it no other way.

TincupCPG, very good post!

All I have to add is that I think the Haruchai also think that it's better to die not using EarthPower than to use it at all. It will be interesting to see their reaction to the Ranyhyn's judgement of them, in that the Ranyhyn are beings of Earthpower too (in a way).

I wonder if the Haruchai distrust of Earthpower is predicated on the millenia spent under the Vow? They were in effect enslaved and no longer Masters of their own fate. Add to that their eye-witness accounts of the use and abuse of such, and we get a plauisble insight to their reluctance.

I've got a few questions on that one myself. I do know for a fact that the Haruchai have SEEN the effects that earthpower have on people and the end results of that faith many times over. That alone would be enough to make them do what they did.

However, the question of the Vow comes into play and raises a few questions on my part. Did the Bloodguard (or some of them) come to believe they were enslaved rather than doing this out of free will? We know Bannor had some misgivings that he would dare not utter. (at least, Covenant thought so). Here are some questions I would like answered..When the very first Bloodguard took the Vow, it was apparent from the last book that they did not know that what they were now doing would cause the earthpower to react the way it did. So, what did they think when they found out sleep, etc was no longer required? That they were virtually immortal unless outright killed? To give up Family, Wives, etc to the service of the Lords? Now, I believe that they knew that last part..but I don't think they realized the scope of what happened to them when they swore the Vow. How do i know that what they did was unintentional? Simple. The Lords, under NO circumstances I can possibly imagine, would never bind ANYONE to the Vow. That would be horrific to them. And we all know the Bloodguard "have no use for Power". So, when they swore the Vow, it was of such immense passion and conviction that it literally made the earthpower respond. Once they were under the Vow and realized all the consequences, they were Haruchai and accepted the responsibility with their characteristic emotionlessness. But, if any at all, what would the long term effects be? We are seeing some of it now.

PROVER OF LIFE!!!!!!! AWESOME SIG!!!!!!!! I wrote out that whole scene here:
p210.ezboard.com/fahirashangarfrm18.showMessage?topicID=38.topic

So then... *whew* I'm away for a few days, and all this!

Regarding the Ramen calling the Masters "Sleepless" and "Bloodguard", I think that, in part, it's simply the fact that, until they met Stave, they had never met a Haruchai that was NOT a Bloodguard. Yeah, once they learned the difference - if they did in Runes - the insult is also there, because they don't much care for these people who are always chosen by a Ranyhyn, and are thus taken into harm.

Tincup, I'm extremely pleased to see someone making such big posts about the Haruchai.

TincupCPG wrote:The only thing I have against the Ramen was brought up in the new book. They just abandoned the Land to care for ranhyn, except for the first book LFB, they really didn't do a lot to aid. Too caught up in caring for the great Horses when i get the distinct impression that after the slaughter of the Ranhyn ended, they didn't need a lot of looking after. They are more creatures of Earthpower than i first thought.

IMO, the Ramen own no apologies. They are entirely dedicated to the Ranyhyn. They may be enthralled beyond all reason, but they have their own Vow, of sorts. "We will serve the Ranyhyn." It's as simple, and as encompassing, as that. They never said they were dedicated to the Land, or would help it whenever it needs help. They have made their position very clear: Mess with the Ranyhyn, and you answer to us.

TincupCPG wrote:Once they were under the Vow and realized all the consequences, they were Haruchai and accepted the responsibility with their characteristic emotionlessness.

Only on the outside. They accepted it with their characteristic extravagant pride.

And now for the main topic here. The Haruchai are, psychologically speaking, simply not capable of using Earthpower. It is not in their nature. If they cannot accomplish a task with their fists and faith, then they don't care. Not even if it means their death. Not even if it means their death as a species. "This is how we live, and this is how we die." (Not a quote from the books, I'm summing up for them. )

However, they can appreciate power, in their way. Why did they take the Vow?

"When we came to the Land, we saw wonders - Giants, Ranyhyn, Revelstone - Lords of such power that they declined to wage war with us lest we be destroyed. In answer to our challenge, they gave to the Haruchai gifts so precious-" He paused, appeared to muse for a moment over private memories. "Therefore we swore the Vow. We could not equal that generosity in any other way."

......

The great gates stood open for three days while the Haruchai commanders tasted the grandeur of Revelstone. They experienced the laughing genial power of the Giants who had made the Keep, received the confident offer of Kevin's Council to supply the Haruchai freely whatever they needed for as long as their need lasted. When the commanders returned to their army, they sat astride prancing Ranyhyn, which had come from the Plains of Ra at Kevin's call and had chosen to bear the Haruchai. Korik and his peers were of one mind. Something new was upon them, something beyond instinctive kinship with Ranyhyn, beyond friendship and awe for the Giants, beyond even the fine entrancement of Revelstone itself. The Haruchai were fighters, accustomed to wrest what they required: they could not accept gifts without making meet return.

......

"The Vow of the Bloodguard was sworn to meet the bounty and grandeur of High Lord Kevin and Revelstone."

They swore their Vow to people of immense power, because of the things they did, and were capable of doing, with that power. And they couldn't help but notice that the Giants and Ranyhyn, who the Haruchai loved so deeply and instinctively, had bound themselves to these Lords in various ways. They clearly knew to whom they were pledging themselves, so it can't be denied that they approved in some way.

But, alas, things didn't go well. Stave's list of problems with using Earthpower is a good one. But still, they helped Sunder & Hollian, and presumably Anele. But it looks like those three didn't start any new Council, didn't train anybody. So when Anele lost the Staff, and Kevin's Dirt came along, nobody could feel the Earthpower.

What's to be done? The Earthpower wasn't getting things started, as it did for Berek, so anyone who happened to stumble onto any power might
misunderstand, or intentionally misuse, it. The Haruchai, being of the psychological makeup they are, had no options. They would/could not wield Earthpower themselves. And though they likely have the exact words to a lot of spells in their communal memory, they just couldn't become teachers of lore. Aside from such things being unthinkable for them, they learned what passing on such knowledge accomplishes when they told Elena the name of the 7th Ward.

I wonder what they would have done with the Staff if they had found it after Anele lost it. Would they have tried to find someone who they somehow thought was a good person to wield it? Would they have locked it in the depths of Revelstone, and never told anyone about it? Who knows.

Anyway, I don't approve of what they did. I simply understand it. I just wish their extraordinary psyche had allowed a different answer. Knowing that an Earthpowerless people would be even less able to keep the Land safe from a returned Foul than they, themselves, were, I wish they'd been able to think more of the Land than their own path.

Lemme say a few things here. I agree with abt 99.9 percent of what you said, Faith! I should have phrased things a tad better. I do not hold a grudge against the Ramen, just sounded that way in my post. Caring for the great horses IS their "vow". That is their sole purpose. Only twice have we seen Ramen doing something without the Ranyhyn. Once in was LFB, at the end of the Quest when a Ramen led the party underground, and then out. And the second was Winhome Gay when she arrived at Revelstone to give warning of war in TIW. I salute them.

The Haruchai? You bet it was their pride. If anything their pride is their greatness weakness. I know exactly what the Masters would have done with the new Staff of Law. We are told BY the Masters that the staff, BY ITSELF, unsupported, will help fight aginst despite simply by it's natural Law. They have absolutely zero intentions of forking over that Staff. I am still not positive they won't try somehow to wrest it from Avery! (good luck to them, btw) Yes, i understand what they did as well..but NOT having their pride and their arrogance (undeclared) I can see what the effect would have been on the Land while clearly they did not. They even refuse to acknowledge the obvious: If the haruchai fall, a Master said the people of the Land will fight. How? They hid that knowledge from the people. They no longer have knowledge of Lord Foul. What a glaring oversite on the Haruchai's part. I don't think they KNEW that an Earthpowerless Land would be horribly weak. From their point of view, Corruption was "gone". And all the troubles started anyways with misuse of Law. At least, from their point of view. They honestly think that Law, by itself, can and will defend against Despite. WE know differently. Ask the Sunbane, as just one example. Earthpower by itself has a natural Law, but it cannot stand by itself against an attacker. It needs to be weilded and used. It is not a conscious entity in and of itself. The Haruchai's intentions were clear and understandable, to a point. After that, it becomes inexcusable. Good intentions are not always best intentions.

It occurs to me that all the accusations that people have laid against the Bork, aka Hile Troy, are equally true of the Masters. Arrogance, shortsightedness, 'blindness to the fatal flaw in their plan', etc.

I also find it interesting that both Troy and the Masters are the very ones who are prone to judging others and finding them wanting. I'm sure that's no coincidence.

TincupCPG wrote:They honestly think that Law, by itself, can and will defend against Despite.

This brings up something else I wonder about. I wonder if the Haruchai sort of took on a new kind of vow when they agreed to Covenant's request that they stay in Revelstone and help out. They are certaily taking that request extremely seriously, what with their horribly misguided plan to safeguard the Land in the absence of any Lords. I mean, why not just go back to the Westron Mountains? If they think the Law is up to the task, why do they bother? It's not their home, after all. And they're certainly doing their part to turn the Land into something far removed from the glorious thing that they originally fell so in love with that they swore the Vow.

No, I don't think they took a new Vow at all. However, seems a bit much to stay for, what? 4,000 years after Covenant asked them to stay? Maybe they respected him, the power he held, and the fact that he died (we will see) defending the Land. For the Haruchai, that might well be enough. (if) the Haruchai know he died at all.

What IS strange to me is that the Haruchai living have NEVER seen the Land in it's glory. What they have are stories passed down from one generation to the next. Granted, they might be extremely well remembered and more likely written, but how can you explain Earthpower and what the Land used to be 7 to 8 thousand years ago? Unless they have SRD doing the writing for them, I doubt they could conveil the emotion it takes to understand what the Land was.

Unless I missread the book, I think what Sunder and Hollian did was to heal the land itself during their time with the Staff of Law. There was no new attempt to create a new council of Lords. At least, none that we know about? So, that might explain why there IS no council. With no Lords, the Haruchai stayed to defend the Land against whatever enemy might threaten. After so many years, they generally slid to their current way of thinking. Let me know if I missed anything in the book that tells of them trying to start a new council?

No, I don't think there was any mention of Sunder, Hollian, or Anele trying to start a new council.

Re the living Haruchai, I'm not sure. After Linden did what she did in WGW, Sunder, Hollian, and Anele did a lot of good work for centuries, fixing things even further. And do we have reason to believe that Kevin's Dirt somehow prevents Earthpower from existing as it naturally would, and acting as it naturally would - or does it merely prevent health-sense in basic Land-dwellers? If the former, then the Land is probably a pretty fantastic place again. But then you may be right that it's not as great as it was in Kevin's day. Maybe only as good as it was in the beginning of LFB? Hard to know...

I don't think Kevin's Dirt does anything except take away the Health Sense of the people of the Land. Now, isn't that an interesting coincidence?That beng the Haruchai are dead set against anyone using Power, even Heath sense as that allows you to "see" what normal eyes cannot. Might make people curious over the fact that now they can see illness, truth, sanity,etc. Sounds like someone saw what the Haruchai were doing to the people of the Land and helped it along a little bit. Foul? he denied doing anything at all, and I am one of the few that does believe what he says. I don't think he would or need to lie to achieve his needs. So who?

I say the Earthpower is there in it's glory. Nothing wrong with the Earthpower at all. It is simply that the people have been stripped of any knowledge of it. The Land will look totally different than 7000 years ago, what wouldn't? And with all the disasters that have struck it? But something tells me even right now the Land is a wonderful place..but obviously needs Earthpower being used to achieve something even close to what it once was. Once Kevin's Dirt is removed (I am sure it will be at some point) then EVERYONE will gain the Health sense back. Not just the Haruchai and a few select lucky ones. Once the people can "see" betcha it makes them curious about how and why! All that leads eventually to the use of Earthpower again. Especially with Linden wielding the Staff of Law to help things along. Now, whether or not anything like that comes to pass, only SRD knows. And he ain't tellin'!!!

Hmm...

Apart from the claiming of your vacant son, I have merely whispered a word of counsel here and there, and awaited events.

They serve me, as do the Haruchai, unwittingly, and in arrogance.

I keep thinking that the position of the Haruchai has something to do with Lord Foul. I hear all this discussion of their reaction to their vow, etc. I just keep thinking that the Haruchai are being very much manipulated. LF is playing on all the senses of pride, etc. that they are known to have. What could LF have done to influence the Haruchai's position?

NIK

TincupCPG wrote:But something tells me even right now the Land is a wonderful place..but obviously needs Earthpower being used to achieve something even close to what it once was.

The One Forest was the most glorious, beautiful life form the Earth has ever seen, and humans using Earthpower had nothing to do with its life. They did, however, have everything to do with its death. Them and the ravers and Despiser that they brought with them. Later humans, wielding mighty Earthpower, certainly did not bring it back, nor anything to compare. No, humans using Earthpower is not the answer. Humans leaving the Land, on the other branch, might be a good idea.