Jeremiah *Potential Spoilers*
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finn
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Sorry to be picky Nerdanel, but surely if the biblical Jeremiah is a tool of God, he should allegorically be a representative of the creator rather than the despiser?
He may be a doom-sayer but he is still a vessel of god not the devil.
(In honesty I have not like you, taken the time of trouble to actually read the Biblical Jeremiah, so if you want to shoot me down it will be a fair cop!!!)
He may be a doom-sayer but he is still a vessel of god not the devil.
(In honesty I have not like you, taken the time of trouble to actually read the Biblical Jeremiah, so if you want to shoot me down it will be a fair cop!!!)
Finn, I agree entirely. If we are to to take SRDs allegory at its word, so to speak, then it is the Creator's hand that caused Jeremiah to speak - not Lord Foul. That would be entirely contradictory to the Book of Jeremiah (which I finally bothered to read).
Still, the conjecture was good.
That said, there is simply too many comparisons between Jeremiah and the Creator for Lord Foul to be a part of it. First, Jeremiah's MANY creations, and second, that he speaks - and that Jeremiah of the old testament was not able to speak until he was touched by the hand of god.
GOD, in the Land, would be the Creator. The Creator could not touch Jeremiah directly outside of the Land, but he could touch him while in the Land. (I think)
Still, the conjecture was good.
That said, there is simply too many comparisons between Jeremiah and the Creator for Lord Foul to be a part of it. First, Jeremiah's MANY creations, and second, that he speaks - and that Jeremiah of the old testament was not able to speak until he was touched by the hand of god.
GOD, in the Land, would be the Creator. The Creator could not touch Jeremiah directly outside of the Land, but he could touch him while in the Land. (I think)
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." (Anais Nin)
Lord Foul has many connections to the Christian God, particularly from the Old Testament. The situation in the Chronicles is fairly Gnostic in the sense that there is a good god outside the universe and an evil god that the people actually have to interact with. In Gnostic thought the Old Testament God is identified with the Demiurge, the evil lesser creator.
For example, God leads the Israelites on the desert in the form of a cloud by day. We know Lord Foul can also take the form of a gray cloud and his human form is very Sixtine Chapel. Lord Foul likes perfection and when the soldiers he creates are flawed somehow he punishes THEM by throwing them into a lake of fire to become the jheherrin. The comparison to the Christian Hell is obvious. Lord Foul likes to be worshipped, as seen from his initial meeting with Thomas Covenant and on.
As for the Creator's influence, I think Jeremiah is between the Creator and Lord Foul and will eventually have to choose his path. But now I think he is possessed by Lord Foul. Remember, it would have taken a large amount of strange incompetence for Lord Foul to have misplaced Jeremiah by accident, even with Thomas Covenant being involved. And the Demondim stood back to let Jeremiah and Covenant into Revelstone.
For example, God leads the Israelites on the desert in the form of a cloud by day. We know Lord Foul can also take the form of a gray cloud and his human form is very Sixtine Chapel. Lord Foul likes perfection and when the soldiers he creates are flawed somehow he punishes THEM by throwing them into a lake of fire to become the jheherrin. The comparison to the Christian Hell is obvious. Lord Foul likes to be worshipped, as seen from his initial meeting with Thomas Covenant and on.
As for the Creator's influence, I think Jeremiah is between the Creator and Lord Foul and will eventually have to choose his path. But now I think he is possessed by Lord Foul. Remember, it would have taken a large amount of strange incompetence for Lord Foul to have misplaced Jeremiah by accident, even with Thomas Covenant being involved. And the Demondim stood back to let Jeremiah and Covenant into Revelstone.
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Excellent point Nerdanel, and one I was toying with myself, though you describe it more eloquently than I wouold have.Nerdanel wrote:Lord Foul has many connections to the Christian God, particularly from the Old Testament. The situation in the Chronicles is fairly Gnostic in the sense that there is a good god outside the universe and an evil god that the people actually have to interact with.
I wonder how this connects with old a'Jeroth of the seven hells?
--A
I misspoke (or misrote ). The Creator can't touch Jeremiah in The Land, but he could touch him outside of the Land. He healed Covenant at the end of the first trilogy, and could easily have appeared to Jeremiah - not Linden (SRD made a strong point that the old man never visited her) - and instead of advice such as 'Be True", he "touched" his mouth and allowed him to speak. Either in the real world or on the way to the real world.
). The Creator can't touch Jeremiah in The Land, but he could touch him outside of the Land. He healed Covenant at the end of the first trilogy, and could easily have appeared to Jeremiah - not Linden (SRD made a strong point that the old man never visited her) - and instead of advice such as 'Be True", he "touched" his mouth and allowed him to speak. Either in the real world or on the way to the real world."Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." (Anais Nin)
hey Nerdanel, thanks for doing our homework for us!!
i have always thought that Jeremiah was a tool of the Creator. if there were clues in the text to this i didn't conciously pick up on them (meaning there's nothing that i can quote here to explain my assumption) but this discussion has only strengthened my conviction. great discussion. thanks to all!
i have always thought that Jeremiah was a tool of the Creator. if there were clues in the text to this i didn't conciously pick up on them (meaning there's nothing that i can quote here to explain my assumption) but this discussion has only strengthened my conviction. great discussion. thanks to all!
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
I agree we aren't in for a direct allegory. That's why we are having the skurj and not any hypothetical neighboring human countries about to become a problem. Similarly, if the Babylon thing pans out, which is far from certain, our Babylonians might be any number of things from the Demondim threatening Revelstone to croyel-led someones besieging a Land-version of that strange castle Jeremiah built in Linden's house.. (It remains to be seen if the Demondim are able or willing to just blast their way into Revelstone without any real siege, for example.)
Lucimay, can you please explain? We on this forum have talked about things like the racecar track "Arch of Time" in Jeremiah's bedroom, but those are all "real world" things. The Creator cannot access Jeremiah in the Land without causing the end of the world, while Lord Foul (who I might note never appears to tell a direct lie) said he could command or destroy Jeremiah and actually swore an oath regarding the circumstances in which Linden would meet her son. It very much looks like Jeremiah is currently possessed and in Lord Foul's service.
Lucimay, can you please explain? We on this forum have talked about things like the racecar track "Arch of Time" in Jeremiah's bedroom, but those are all "real world" things. The Creator cannot access Jeremiah in the Land without causing the end of the world, while Lord Foul (who I might note never appears to tell a direct lie) said he could command or destroy Jeremiah and actually swore an oath regarding the circumstances in which Linden would meet her son. It very much looks like Jeremiah is currently possessed and in Lord Foul's service.
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finn
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[spoiler]We see Jeremiah once only in the Land[/spoiler]
.......and there is no reason to assume from anything in the book that he is possessed by anyone unless we use "possessed" in the context of "kept", ie prisoner.
Burgs, you're right I think that the Creator cannot do anything "in" the Land, either directly or I think through possession, as a part of him would efectively be on the Land end of the Arch.
However what if he's been schooling Jeremiah whilst he was in the real world, could he be the allegorical "son" of God/Creator?
What too if the time line the creator has used to school him is "land time" as opposed to "real world time", he would have years of knowledge making him a powerful avatar of the Creator in the Land.
.......and there is no reason to assume from anything in the book that he is possessed by anyone unless we use "possessed" in the context of "kept", ie prisoner.
Burgs, you're right I think that the Creator cannot do anything "in" the Land, either directly or I think through possession, as a part of him would efectively be on the Land end of the Arch.
However what if he's been schooling Jeremiah whilst he was in the real world, could he be the allegorical "son" of God/Creator?
What too if the time line the creator has used to school him is "land time" as opposed to "real world time", he would have years of knowledge making him a powerful avatar of the Creator in the Land.
i glanced down and saw finn has posted a spoiler so i am purposely not reading that before i respond to you Nerdanel... i'll backtrack and see what he has to say after i try to respond to you...
weeeelllll. i'll give it a shot. it's been a while and several other long long reads of other things since i read ROTE but i believe i thought that the Creator did to Jeremiah whatever he was going to do to him in the "real" world and that whatever purpose was imparted to him carries over into the Land. you guys and your discussions here, are light years beyond me for the most part. you've read these books in an academic way that i have not, feel free to disabuse me of my notions!
i have no theories on Jeremiah's purpose, i will say, however, that i can't yet buy "tool of Foul" theory. Foul is so ultimately fallable (no pun intended) that whatever he does usually comes back to bite him in the bum! You're free to attempt to convince me, tho'. in stories like this, where there are big long-*ss breaks between episodes, my brain kinda stops where the author tells it to and doesn't take up again until he lets me by publishing the next installment! it's just how i read episodic literature. i do this because i read a LOT of episodic literature!! (arg) it allows me to go on to another story while i'm waiting for an installment.
all that to say that i don't have much conjecture to offer to this discussion but i get a lot of insight out of reading what all of you are discussing here!
it's different for me and new and i'm very interested.
i hope i've answered you Nerdanel. if not, ask me again and i'll give it another shot! 
Lucimay, can you please explain? We on this forum have talked about things like the racecar track "Arch of Time" in Jeremiah's bedroom, but those are all "real world" things. The Creator cannot access Jeremiah in the Land without causing the end of the world, while Lord Foul (who I might note never appears to tell a direct lie) said he could command or destroy Jeremiah and actually swore an oath regarding the circumstances in which Linden would meet her son. It very much looks like Jeremiah is currently possessed and in Lord Foul's service.
weeeelllll. i'll give it a shot. it's been a while and several other long long reads of other things since i read ROTE but i believe i thought that the Creator did to Jeremiah whatever he was going to do to him in the "real" world and that whatever purpose was imparted to him carries over into the Land. you guys and your discussions here, are light years beyond me for the most part. you've read these books in an academic way that i have not, feel free to disabuse me of my notions!
i have no theories on Jeremiah's purpose, i will say, however, that i can't yet buy "tool of Foul" theory. Foul is so ultimately fallable (no pun intended) that whatever he does usually comes back to bite him in the bum! You're free to attempt to convince me, tho'. in stories like this, where there are big long-*ss breaks between episodes, my brain kinda stops where the author tells it to and doesn't take up again until he lets me by publishing the next installment! it's just how i read episodic literature. i do this because i read a LOT of episodic literature!! (arg) it allows me to go on to another story while i'm waiting for an installment.
all that to say that i don't have much conjecture to offer to this discussion but i get a lot of insight out of reading what all of you are discussing here!
it's different for me and new and i'm very interested.
i hope i've answered you Nerdanel. if not, ask me again and i'll give it another shot!
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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Since I've just started a re-read of Runes, I noticed something that, although it has probably been discussed, is something I haven't seen mentioned.
When Linden is trasported to the Land, the last thing she hears Foul say is that he has her son.
And when Anele is possessed by Foul, he tells Linden that he is trying to decide what will hurt her more...seeing Jeremiah in service to Foul, or watching him get killed.
He also says that until she sees him, she'll not know what he suffers, but she'll know that he is alive. Furthermore, that when she does see him again, it will be the hastening of his doom, either toward death, or to watch him serve Foul.
Now Linden has seen him.
(And why would dead Covenant tell her to find him, if he's coming to her anyway? The whole appearance at the end is highly suspicious to me.)
Perhaps the Creator did indeed appear to Jeremiah in the real world, but why should we assume he did any more than he did for TC and Linden when he appeared to them? A couple of words of encouragement. No more.
It's too soon for Fouls plans to start falling apart, if indeed they even will. Bodes ill, I think.
--A
When Linden is trasported to the Land, the last thing she hears Foul say is that he has her son.
And when Anele is possessed by Foul, he tells Linden that he is trying to decide what will hurt her more...seeing Jeremiah in service to Foul, or watching him get killed.
He also says that until she sees him, she'll not know what he suffers, but she'll know that he is alive. Furthermore, that when she does see him again, it will be the hastening of his doom, either toward death, or to watch him serve Foul.
Now Linden has seen him.
(And why would dead Covenant tell her to find him, if he's coming to her anyway? The whole appearance at the end is highly suspicious to me.)
Perhaps the Creator did indeed appear to Jeremiah in the real world, but why should we assume he did any more than he did for TC and Linden when he appeared to them? A couple of words of encouragement. No more.
It's too soon for Fouls plans to start falling apart, if indeed they even will. Bodes ill, I think.
--A
I don't know how it could be possible that Lord Foul's words are coming true right now but not in the way that he wanted. I expect that things will eventually turn out fairly happily or at least not entirely sadly but I don't think everything can be fine re: Jeremiah at this point.
Unless Jeremiah has a hidden condition that will kill him in a nasty way unless Linden finds a cure or the Jeremiah Linden sees is not the real Jeremiah, I see no way out him currently serving Lord Foul somehow. The options were 1) to die in torment or 2) to serve Lord Foul, and the former doesn't look to be the case. Jeremiah doesn't act like he is in pain and the Demondim retreat to allow him pass by unharmed. Of the ways in which Jeremiah could serve Foul, I think possession sounds just like the thing.
Unless Jeremiah has a hidden condition that will kill him in a nasty way unless Linden finds a cure or the Jeremiah Linden sees is not the real Jeremiah, I see no way out him currently serving Lord Foul somehow. The options were 1) to die in torment or 2) to serve Lord Foul, and the former doesn't look to be the case. Jeremiah doesn't act like he is in pain and the Demondim retreat to allow him pass by unharmed. Of the ways in which Jeremiah could serve Foul, I think possession sounds just like the thing.
I think that the Creator in fact appeared to Sandy (?) or some such... the one who is always babysitting Jeremiah... I remember when Linden called her, and the babysitter seemed agitated for some reason... and what better reason is there to be agitated... than to have someone telling you to 'be true'?