So......when does Nom come back into the picture?

[Avatar]

Gotta agree with Finn here WayFriend. In fact, didn't the Kemper say something about it not mattering what distance seperated the speaker from the sandgorgon? (Would have to check.)

But it certainly seems likely that they too can manipulate time in some way, as per Finn's example.

--Avatar

[wayfriend]

I'd like to see something that would convince me that Nom could travel the vast distance involved to get to Revelstone within the time between TC saying "Nom" and Nom actually arriving.

No, sir; the speculation that the Sandgorgons defy time is yours, not mine. My evidence is that there is nothing anywhere that indicates that this has happened. Show me something that points out otherwise.

In fact, didn't the Kemper say something about it not mattering what distance seperated the speaker from the sandgorgon?

"there is not time. The Sandgorgons answer their release swiftly. Distance has no meaning to such power. Behold!" His voice sharpened. "Though the Doom lies more than a score of leagues hence, already the answer draws nigh."

This is just a description of something moving fast - covering a long distance in a short time. Distance has no meaning to such power is merely poesy; it means that Sandgorgons can cover any distance in a short amount of time, no matter how vast, because of their strength and their constitution.

Where is there anything here which points to hearing a summons ahead of time? I see no words to this affect.

Notice that they wait, and that they actually see the Sandgorgon traverse almost the entire distance from the Doom - after the name is called. Even in WGW, they wait - there is no sign that Nom got advanced warning.

As opposed to the Ranyhyn - where it is specifically pointed out that they hear the call ahead of time.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I'm with Wayfriend on this one.
That's how I read it too.
Just an incredibly powerful being and nothing to do with time.


I also believe that to be summoned you have to *mean* or *intend* for a Sandgorgon to be summoned.
Not just saying the word.

I can't see this happening:

Pick any Stonedown.
Husband and wife sitting at the table eating dinner with their small child.
"Say *Mommy*, Amorine. Come on honey. You can say it." coaches Father.
"Moni...Noni...Nom...Mommy!" says little Amorine.
"Good job, baby!" exclaims Mother happily.
"Uh, Dear. What's that rumbling noise?" asks Father.
**CRASH** **BOOM**

LOL!

Perhaps as a being of power like the Sandgorgon is, it heard TC's summons (in the WGW) through the Earth itself and not the sound of his voice.
This avoids the obvious "how could the Sandgorgon hear it's summons from such a great distance" question.

The summons, the magic created by the Kemper as part of the Doom, is an instantaneous transmission.
The Sandgorgon responds as a powerful physical being.
IMHO!

[wayfriend]

The summons, the magic created by the Kemper as part of the Doom, is an instantaneous transmission.

Yes, I agree on this (right back at you). This say-my-name-I-kill-you stuff was something added to Sandgorgon's Doom - Kasreyn admits this himself. It's not an aspect of a Sandgorgon's nature.

Although I think the author blurred this a little bit in WGW - after all, Nom never returned to the Doom, so how did that work? Ah, well, a little poetic license is allowed.

However - and this gets us back on topic - if Nom was successful in dismantling the Doom, then the summonsing bit should no longer be functional now. If someone says "Nom!" and Nom comes, then there's some new factor involved.

Uh, oh. I said Nom ... !!!

Uh Oh, I said Nom again ... !!!

[Akasri]

Nom!

Oops...

[native]

No, sir; the speculation that the Sandgorgons defy time is yours, not mine. My evidence is that there is nothing anywhere that indicates that this has happened. Show me something that points out otherwise.

Hmm I have to agree with Wayfriend that there is no proof that Sandgorgons
defy time. Nevertehless circumstance suggests to me it is the case. IMHO they would have to be unthinkably more powerful that they appear to be in order to run from the Sandhold to Revelstone in such a short time.

[Gofer]

Ref:

If someone says "Nom!" and Nom comes, then there's some new factor involved. (Wayfriend)


But that was the case with TC at Revelstone in WGW - Nom didn't come back because he was compelled.

He came back for TC presumably because he felt that he owed TC for not killing him.

As for the speeed/time debate - there is no proof either way. However, in WGW when he is summoned, it takes him some time to get to Revelstone, and he is moving damned fast when he does, which suggests speed is the answer, not some form of time travelling/manipulation. (Covenant was 'on fire' at the time and there was time for a short conversation and a bevvy before Nom's plume of dust was seen.

[dlbpharmd]

Why wouldn't the power of Sandgorgon's Doom enable Nom to travel faster than he might be able to otherwise?

[CovenantJr]

As for the speeed/time debate - there is no proof either way. However, in WGW when he is summoned, it takes him some time to get to Revelstone, and he is moving damned fast when he does, which suggests speed is the answer, not some form of time travelling/manipulation. (Covenant was 'on fire' at the time and there was time for a short conversation and a bevvy before Nom's plume of dust was seen.

I agree. Sandgorgons are immensely powerful by nature, and it seemed to me that Nom just used his might to its full extent to cheese over to Revelstone. As you say, it took a little time.

[drew]

Holy Crow!!
A lot of speculation on a sub-charactor eh?
I beleive that it's possible that Nom could come back,or one of his offspring...but it would probebly be on their own accord, since Nom wanted to dissasemble the Doom; I wonder if they became friendly with the Brathairians, since Cov asked them to play nice?

[finn]

Wayfriend, there is no evidence either way that I can see, so it's a subject open to speculation; hey that's what a good % of this board is about!!!

I find it hard though, to conceive of a being able to traverse the vast distance in the timeframe. The Ranyhyn only have to come from one part of the land to another (would they have come if called to the vicinity of Sandgorgons doom?), Nom travels across the entire spread of the Land and across the sea. However, it may not be distance dependant.

Given that the Land supports the power to transact time/distance for the Ranyhyn, it was an assumption on my part (which may be false), that it was something, a natural force if you will, that the sandgorgans tapped into to fulfill their doom.

I have posted elsewhere that I believe one of the best aspects of SRDs writing is that within the context of the fantasy, rules are rules. They can be broken, and a certain type of "magic" ie White Gold, can work outside them: but within the rules governing the laws there is a general consistencey; if someone drops an apple it hits the ground.

Whilst it's entirely plausable that Nom operates on the rules of "magic" encased in Sandgorgon's doom would Kasreyn have over-engineered to such an extent? Perhaps its a one size fits all, but why re-invent a wheel that is already made and serves the Ranyhyn. Given that Runes has tabled time as a variable, (within the strictures of the condition of the Arch, the second White Gold ring and the the construction of the Falls), if sandgorgons can transact time, it does open a whole heap of future plot possibilities for what was a popular character (Nom) if this board is anything to go by.

Speculating further, the Sandgorgons, well Nom at least, could be endowed with the mindspeech of the Haruchai, the power to transact time in the manner of the Ranyhyn and have links to both Giants and Ravers. Any of these aspects have the potential to elevate their character status; cumulatively it could make them very important especially considering their link and obligations (perceived or otherwise) to TC.

[Avatar]

Hmm, as Finn says, no explicit evidence either way. If I recall, there is a delay in the appearance of the Ranyhyn too. In fact, the only aspect that really transcends time is the "call" for them.

They "hear" it long enough before it is issued in order to reach the "caller" soon afterwards. Distance is not negated for them, they still have to travel physically in order for them to arrive. They just leave long before they're called.

Admittedly, this does nothing to clarify the sandgorgon question, but it could be said that the Kemper's comment about the sandgorgons applies equally to the Ranyhyn. Distance has no meaning to such power. It doesn't matter how far away you are, they'll come to you. But they do perform the physical journey to cross the distance necessary in getting there. As does the sandgorgon (apparently).

--A

[wayfriend]

Hmm, as Finn says, no explicit evidence either way.

To the contrary - there is plenty of evidence for one side of the argument. It was even posted in this thread.

[Avatar]

Sorry, have to disagree. The only evidence is not against the Sandgorgons, it is for the Ranyhyn.

They have to traverse that distance between themselves and the caller, as does the Sandgorgon.

Are you suggesting that the sandgorgons are so much faster, so much more perceptive, than the Ranyhyn that Nom not only heard Covenants call for him across untold thousands of leagues, (perhaps across continents), without the benefit of any "magic", but responded fast enough for there to be only a brief wait before he was seen approaching Revelstone?

(This is not to say that I think that your take is wrong, just that I haven't seen anything to suggest that mine is clearly wrong either.)

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[drew]

Let's hope that the Sandgorgons power is explained further in the 3rd chronicles.

[ur-bane]

I am hoping the same thing. I would like to see Nom or one of his offspring. I don't know how much of an explanation we'll get about their power, however. Who is around that posesses the knowledge? There is no one to tell us how the sandgorgon power works.
Unless our Haruchai Masters stoop to the vocalization of sangorgon mindspeech to the lowly denizens of the Land upon encountering one with such ability.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I am hoping the same thing. I would like to see Nom or one of his offspring. I don't know how much of an explanation we'll get about their power, however. Who is around that posesses the knowledge? There is no one to tell us how the sandgorgon power works.
Unless our Haruchai Masters stoop to the vocalization of sangorgon mindspeech to the lowly denizens of the Land upon encountering one with such ability.

Well, Stave can still talk to Nom.
Only the other Haruchai will ignore his mind-speak.

[wayfriend]

Are you suggesting that the sandgorgons are so much faster, so much more perceptive, than the Ranyhyn that Nom not only heard Covenants call for him across untold thousands of leagues, (perhaps across continents), without the benefit of any "magic", but responded fast enough for there to be only a brief wait before he was seen approaching Revelstone?

I pretty sure I am saying that, yes. (I don't understand why you threw in "so much more perceptive", but who wants to quibble.)

[Avatar]

What? Quibbling is what we live for!

I put that in because their hearing would truly have to be phenomenal to hear their name spoken across the distance between the Doom and Revelstone.

Anyway, we probably both have an equal chance of being right here, either they do transcend time in some way, or they don't. Either way, it'll be good to see them again if they appear.

--Avatar

[ur-bane]

From my POV, they don't need to hear their name at all. Distance has no meaning to such power.
The power may not necessarily be the Sandgorgon itself, but the power of invocation of their name.
He doesn't need to physically hear his name, because the power invoked after it is said is the actual call.
Time need not be transcended for that.
Then of course, we all know how fast Nom can travel.