Kevin's Watch

CovenantJr wrote:That was uncharacteristically rude, Edge Bad day?

Actually, yes. And I apologise unreservedly for my rudeness. Sorry; I'll try not to let it happen again.

You're probably right. In the grand scheme of things, I don't read much "SF." I've read the Dune series, the Foundation series, and of course the Hitchhiker's Guide Trilogy, as well as a couple of more minor science fiction books, so I'm not as familiar with the "culture" of the genre as others...

I think this is all getting quite nasty so I thought I'd add my two cents!

Debate can be healthy if it isn't taken personally. I believe that SRD wouldn't take what Idlewilder said "personally". Part of being a writer is taking notice of what people don't like, and I believe that hearing what people don't like is just as valuable as hearing what people do like.

There are two sides to every coin. Just because some of us like Runes doesn't mean that everyone will. I enjoy reading threads discussing people's "negative" assessments of Runes, but that doesn't necessarily mean I agree with everything that is said. Threads such as this one, however, do often make me think more than threads that simply say "ooh, isn't it wonderful".

My very brief opinion of "Runes": brilliant in some ways, but lacking in others.

Thaale wrote:Read my post right before yours, CovenantJr. I don't subscribe to that snobbery and say so. I was just (apparently correctly) deducing from his use of it that he doesn't read a lot of non-fantasy sf.

Fair enough. I stand corrected.

Edge wrote:Actually, yes. And I apologise unreservedly for my rudeness. Sorry; I'll try not to let it happen again.

It's fine, rude by Edge standards is still civil by Zeph standards We all have our moments.

And now, a little light music to soothe the affronted...

I'm not even going to dip so much as a toe into the waters of this dispute.

I'd just like to say that upon first reading of ROTE, I felt that that there was something missing. So I've read it again, and also had a good few sessions after that where I sat and read specific parts, trying to make sure I paid attention to all of it.

ROTE is a stunning book, and I think it sets the stage for a further trilogy that will be just as worth reading as Chronicles 1 & 2. Donaldson's prose style's more muscular now than in the days of Lord Foul's Bane and I think that's what first had me feeling at a loss. I was surprised at the speed with which I managed to read this book, and that for me is the crucial difference.

Stephen Donaldson has written a book that's very easy to read and doesn't require you to have a lie down after particularly heavy chapters. There's a marked lack of poetry recitals in comparison with the previous Chronicles and nobody keeps shouting the seven words at anybody else. There's a real pace about the storytelling the previous Covenant books don't possess, but the darkness is still as present as it ever was.

After all,

Spoiler

we're only at the end of book one and it looks like Linden Avery's travelling to the past has damaged the law of time. After this the Demondim are able to control a Ceasure that accesses the past. Covenant appears from beyond the grave. And it would appear that Kevin's Dirt and Kastenessen breaking the Durance might have come to pass because Linden has ensured the Staff of Law was not present in the land for a good 3000 years.

That's good enough for me, even if I personally find I have to pretend that the Ranyhyn don't have stars on their heads, and the chapter where they go through the Caesure relies far too heavily on the word "formication".

First, since there has been some offense taken in this thread, I want to start out by saying that I mean no offense with this post.

Yes, this is a different book from the other Covenant books, but different doesn't mean that it isn't as good. Instead of a climactic showdown (which can be rather trite, don't ya think?), he gave us a stunning cliffhanger. I thought that was an incredibly refreshing change! I'm confused by the complaints that SRD didn't do things the way he used to, but then in the few places where he does, he is roundly criticized.

To all of the things that he did differently in this novel, I cheered. It was refreshing not to see retreads, although some will argue that the descendants being of characters we already know is a retread.

Regarding Esmer: Why does Esmer have to be Cail's son? Who else would Esmer be? Wouldn't that potent Haruchai blood and the eldritch witchery of the merewives have produced an offspring? And wouldn't that offspring be one screwed up dude? And therefore, wouldn't he - shouldn't he - be playing a rather big part in this mess? That just makes perfect sense to me.

Edge, listen carefully, I'm not being rude or dismissive, and I am giving you substantive examples (re-read my posts if you missed them the first time). You're the one who has given no specific refutation--- at least not in this thread, and resorted to words like "waaaambulance".

I mean no disrespect to SRD, as I've stated more than once already; I'm at least as big a fan as any on the Watch, but I am a discerning fan. I'm sure SRD himself could appreciate that. My admiration for the books is so great that I cannot help but rail against what I perceive as a sub-par addition like Runes.

I appreciate a "new direction", but to my not inexperienced mind (I have a doctorate in history from Yale), SRD took a wrong turn. I went into Runes expecting to love it, but the best I can get out of it (with the exception of the best prologue he's ever written) is ambivalence--- and some downright resentment (on the author's own behalf!) when mediocrity is regarded as "the most brilliant piece of writing SRD has done yet." Come on! Don't denigrate the rest of the chrons like that. Can you honestly put Runes up against the last fifty pages of WGW?

I am not simply saying "I hate Runes" (I don't), I'm saying it is flawed (for reason's I've already outlined). And Kevins Watch is the place to have this intelligent and civil discourse, right?

Idlewilder wrote:Runes needed Covenant! The events in Revelstone after his arrival properly belong in the first book, along with some kind of climax (the cliffhanger was not only a cheat, but amateurish--- do we really need a cliffhanger to get us to buy Fatal Revenant?).

Keep in mind that this stranger may not be what we are expecting. Given SRDs predilection toward messing with our minds, I'm pretty sure, as are many here on the Watch, that the person approaching Revelstone isn't the TC we know and love, and - rightfully so - desperately want to see.

Given that, the ending isn't cheap or amateurish. IMHO.

Idlewilder: again, my apologies for my earlier rudeness - I'm particularly sorry that your first post should be answered by me in a really bad mood. I'll try for a more civilised reply:

Idlewilder wrote:It isn't enough to say that "he's trying a new direction" or that Runes is the prologue to the rest of the series; I doubt he would countenance that excuse himself!

I can understand why people think of it in terms of a prologue; personally I think of it more in terms of being the first quarter of the story entire - in other words, SRD is faced with the challenge of writing only one part of a story, while making that fraction enjoyable and satisfying in and of itself. I think he succeeded admirably in that.

Idlewilder wrote:Sure, we get lots of Linden (and little else, character wise), but her story was told, to great effect, in 2cnd chrons. She's just not that interesting in Runes. She's a one-note protagonaist (Jeremiah) with whom we only have a lingering leftover affection! (I knew Thomas Covenant; Thomas Covenant was a friend of mine; Linden Avery, you are no Thomas Covenant!)... I like Linden, but she's just not that interesting.

I really think that's a matter of perception - to my mind, Linden was far more developed as a character, more independent, and free of being merely a 'shadow' of TC, as in the 2nd chrons. The development of her character has echoes with that of TC between the 1st and 2nd chrons - without being just a repeat of it, as she has a very different personality.

As far as her motivation goes, I appreciate the conflict between her love of, and desire to save the land, versus her absolute need to rescue Jeremiah. Yet another challenge in ethics from SRD - again with echoes from the previous chrons (TC saving the little girl), but far more developed.

Idlewilder wrote:if SRD truly wanted to try a bold new direction, while being true to the integrity of TC's death in WGW, why not give us multiple protagonists (which, of course, probably would have required a totally different story), akin to TIW with Hile Troy.

I think he did a great job of bringing back previous characters and introducing new ones with various ties to the Land and its' history. They're not all as central to the plot as Linden; I think if they were, he'd be blurring the narrative rather than enhancing it - which is what I believe happened with Hile Troy's inclusion in the chrons.

Idlewilder wrote:As for epic scope, we do get hints of it, portentious names dropped too sparingly: skurj, Kastenessen, the Demondim, caesures, etc, but thus far it is a phantom menace (ahem!)--- even Foul seems like he's kinda sitting this one out (surely classic SRD misdirection). I know this isn't your Daddy's Thomas Covenant, but wanting a Black Hat isn't a lack of sophistication, it's a plot requirement!

Again, I think this is a matter of perception or opinion. For me, the threat of evil is far more effective when it's subtle rather than explicit. Having said that, Foul's presence comes through more strongly than in either of the primary volumes of the 1st and 2nd chrons, purely because this is the first time we've seen the protaginist actualling conversing with him. Yet it still works as a subtle menace rather than an explicit, because the conversation is through the medium of possession of one an innocent - rather than Foul, for instance, appearing in a puff of smoke with a maniacal laugh.

Thank you, Edge. All is forgiven.
However, in the spirit of healthy debate, I will not give up my reasonable criticism of Runes, though I do recognize that two adults can agree to disagree.

Just a few rejoinders:
* Novels, even serial fiction, should not be relagated to telling "fractions" of a story, however big the story. The structure of a novel requires certain things which Runes delivers poorly (IMO): terribly pacing and a nebulous climax. Runes drags on from one hike to talk to hike and then ends (it dosn't conclude, it just stops). If you had to pinpoint it, what would you say Runes is the story of? For instance, LFB is the story of the quest for the staff, TIW is, well, the war, etc. Runes is the story of...?
(I am reminded of the definition of trilogy: three connected or interrelated novels. One of the most frequent misconceptions in literature is to call the Lord of the Rings a trilogy, when in fact, Tolkien himself claimed that they were six parts of one cohesive novel--- and yet, for all that, each book still had a definable climax, a moment of crisis). If Runes is to stand as a novel, and remember, this is the medium of Hemingway, Bronte and Steinbeck, then it must be more self-contained (in structure, if not content!) than I believe it is. This does not constitute a "new direction", it constitutes sloppy writing or lazy editing.

* I thought Lindedn was a superbly developed character in 2cnd chrons! I don't see where Runes has adding anything to Linden's "development" per se, other than some trappings (a meaningful career, Jeremiah). Sure, she's more "independent" here, whatever that means, but is that more interesting than the conflicted, unresolved protagonists of the 1st and 2cnd chrons (or MN, and the Gap)? Hey, it's nice to see Linden doing well, but is it good for the story?

* Linden is not conflicted between her desire to save the Land and her love for Jeremiah. She says (or thinks) more than once that Jeremiah comes first. She'll damn the Land before she'll lose her son (and who could fault her--- not Mhoram, as you pointed out with the example of the snakebitten girl) (Well, I suppose the Harucahi would fault her). There is no conflict of ethics here--- we know how that choice would go. She's just trusting that it will work out well for the Land anyway.

* Previous characters and new ones: I don't know, Edge. Liand is boring as hell (sure he's a nice guy, but you know what they say...); I liked him better when his name was Lena. And the Haruchai have raised arrogance to the level of idiocy; they've insulted the valor and service of the Bloodguard. The Ramen are undeveloped stock characters, Anele is tiresome to read about (opinion, I suppose). Esmer has promise, as does the Mahdoubt, but SRD barely scratched the surface with those two.

* As far as other POV characters blurring the narrative, other writers pull it off (after all, GRRM is wildly successful, though I'm not a fan myself). That would have been a "new direction." Maybe Liand would have been less bland. Although, I will grant that, however interesting a character, Hile Troy may have messed with the cohesion of TIW (he's forgiven, though, because his storyline was handled well and was as good as TC's).

* The threat of evil in Runes isn't all that subtle; it hits you across the face from the moment Linden arrives: Kevin's Dirt (please, don't get me started on Kevin's Dirt--- that's a whole other beef!) the historical and Nazi-like dominion of the Masters, the caesures, the skurj, the Illearth Stone and the Demondim, and Foul himself. The evil is pervasive. We just don't know where it is going yet. (Personally, I think the Land is cycling to its natural end, Foul perceives it and is content to just let it happen so he be free--- only Covenant needs to find a way to see that Foul isn't allowed to ravage the universe like he did the Land--- or something like that)

In the end, I don't want to detract from anyone's enjoyment of the book--- more power to you if you can find the redeeming qualities (and I found some, too). Despite my criticism, I hope the book does well (though so far it doesn't look spectacular), because I want to see Fatal Revenant asap! I have faith SRD will bust it wide open within the first fifty pages of that one.

As burgs66 and others have pointed out, SRD is trying it differently this time. Instead of having a climactic ending a la The One Tree, Runes has a cliffhanger ending. Although I’d prefer a more self-contained story (especially with three years between books), that’s just me (and you and some others).

(An aside on the above and how it relates to sales, notoriety, etc. Many of us have had this problem when recommending series novels to friends: that a lot of people don’t like to start a series that is still in progress. Some people aren’t re-readers, and they know they won’t remember book one when book three comes out in two years. Others just like to have the whole story available before they start. I think it’s a lot easier to get people on board a series in progress when you can tell them truthfully, “Here are the first two books of this trilogy. The last one doesn’t come out till next year, but that’s okay, because at the end of The One Tree you’ll definitely feel like it’s a good stopping place,” than it is to say, “This is Runes of the Earth It’s the first quarter of one long novel. It breaks off in the middle of a scene. The cycle will be finished in about a decade.”

A lot of people are just not going to start that. If you’re going to be three years between books, the serial method is not an ideal way of telling your story. When Dickens and Dumas were wildly popular serial writers, they were publishing installments once a week.)

Cliffhanger endings can be spectacular. You have a big revelation, then you leave your audience to stew over the implications of it. I think that the reason this ending came up short in that department for me is that the ending wasn’t unexpected but long-expected. From the title of the series to the many authorial comments we have read to Covenant’s messages to Linden through Runes, it had been already indicated that he was still around and would be making an appearance. So for me it didn’t have that blockbuster quality that a good cliffhanger should have.

Jeremiah’s presence doesn’t qualify, either, IMO. Linden already knew he was in The Land.

As for the absence of any kind of foil for Linden or alternate POV characters, I think there’s a reason for it: Covenant. Whether that’s really TC or not, it’s likely that he will take his place alongside Linden in future books. Knowing that, SRD didn’t promote Liand or Stave to the level of co-protagonist, thus avoiding the need to have to demote him again when TC came along.

That’s fine, but I just don’t see why it took 500 pages to get us to that point. Sure, I had that feeling of “Finally!” when it happened, but I would have had that if it had happened on page 86.

As with you, I’m not trying to dampen anyone’s enjoyment of the book. If you like it, you like it. I had pretty high expectations going in, which is sometimes a recipe for slight disappointment.

eh. perhaps he hasn't written abook like this in the Covenant series before -- but he has written a book like this before. Runes reminds me more than a bit of MOHD. It's a long and careful setup for what will follow, complete with cliff hanger ending. And AMRT was a great read, when all of that careful preparation in Mirror pays off.

And some people, when they read Mirror of her Dreams have very close to the same reactions that some of the Runes critics are having -- complaints about the pacing -- complaints about not enough happening -- complaints about the main character not being interesting enough. But when you get to the second book (which is actually more like the second half of what reads like one long novel) -- all of the action breaks wide open. I think something similar will be happening with Fatal Revanant.

MOHD was such a great read because we were learning about Mordant, Imagery, and all the various characters for the first time. It was novel (in the sense of being original). We don't need that kind of pacing with a Covenant book--- we already have the background.

If we prefer to regard Runes as a wind-up to Fatal Revenat, which I don't see we have any other choice but to, it relegates the book to the literary equivalent of the author clearing his throat before the beginning of the real story (no pun intended).

If that satisfys some, well and good. Me, I expected more after 21 years--- with a three year wait for the next. Why should that be an unreasonable expectation? A case can be made for art for art's sake, but let's not forget that all art must be, to a certain extent, commercial--- or dependent upon commerce for dissemination. Sure, SRD can write whatever he pleases, but to see the rest of the Last Chrons in print, he's got to please an audience as well. Now, these are dark and dangerous waters, which lead to much that is awful--- RA Salvatore, the endless dreck of Robert Jordan, etc, but a writer like SRD should know how to navigate them.

I know I’m not Edge, but I feel justifiably qualified to comment on this. So I’m sticking my nose in.

Idlewilder wrote: Just a few rejoinders:
* Novels, even serial fiction, should not be relegated to telling "fractions" of a story, however big the story. If you had to pinpoint it, what would you say Runes is the story of? For instance, LFB is the story of the quest for the staff, TIW is, well, the war, etc. Runes is the story of...?

Runes may feel like an extended prologue, but I don’t believe that it is. Like The Lord of the Rings that you mentioned before, this is one of four interconnected novels. I would imagine that, when all is said and done, that we will see some different endings, maybe a more traditional climax (though I still argue that the lack of a traditional – read trite and cliché – climax is a strength of this book).

Also, each book of The Lord of the Rings did not have an absolute, definable climax – at least not like the climaxes you’ve identified in other Covenant novels. The books have had endings, and I’m speaking of all six books in the so-called trilogy.

Idlewilder wrote: * I thought Linden was a superbly developed character in 2cnd chrons! I don't see where Runes has adding anything to Linden's "development" per se, other than some trappings (a meaningful career, Jeremiah). Sure, she's more "independent" here, whatever that means, but is that more interesting than the conflicted, unresolved protagonists of the 1st and 2cnd chrons (or MN, and the Gap)? Hey, it's nice to see Linden doing well, but is it good for the story?

She’s great for the story. How can you downplay her personal growth after losing her lover, and a “Land” with which she fell deeply in love? She moved from losing Covenant and the Land to a new career, part of which involves taking care of Joan (tremendous responsibility that speaks volumes for her strength of character), and adopting one of the children that Foul so horribly maimed as her own son, something which requires tremendous fortitude. This is a strong woman in every sense of the word.

Not only that, once in the Land she is horribly confused. In the second chronicles she had TC to guide her; now she has only herself, and let’s face it, TC does know more about the Land than she does. Yet armed with little knowledge, she recognizes that there is a need for the Staff of Law, and armed with white gold that she barely knows how to use, she rides a caesure back in time to retrieve it! Could TC have done that? Could he have wielded the wild magic so delicately? Then of course she healed with wild magic. TC is lucky to shave with it. That’s all the mastery he’s ever been able to conjure up.

In many ways, Linden surpasses TC in this book. Remember, with all of her confusion, not understanding the specific threat (is it Foul, this fiery presence that inhabits Anele, Esmer, Kassy, the skurj – what is it?), there is something else: she is responsible for the caesures. By giving Joan back her ring, she set into motion much of the disaster that is plaguing the Land. Add this pressure to the fact that Foul has her son – I argue strenuously that this is NOT a one dimensional character, and that her development, while still in progress, is nothing short of astonishing.

Idlewilder wrote: * Linden is not conflicted between her desire to save the Land and her love for Jeremiah. She says (or thinks) more than once that Jeremiah comes first. She'll damn the Land before she'll lose her son (and who could fault her--- not Mhoram, as you pointed out with the example of the snakebitten girl) (Well, I suppose the Harucahi would fault her). There is no conflict of ethics here--- we know how that choice would go. She's just trusting that it will work out well for the Land anyway.

She’s terribly conflicted. As I noted above, she’s responsible for part of the madness ravaging the land. This is not something she lives with easily. Also, I refuse to believe that she will damn the Land to save her son, even if she makes that comment in a moment of hysterical rage. Remember, she loves the Land. She feels its health and pain extravagantly. Remember when she was able to attune herself to the Land by using the Staff?

Speaking of which, how many Lords would have been able to take hold of the Staff of Law and make it do the things that Linden is doing with it? Again – extraordinary, substantial woman.

Idlewilder wrote:* Previous characters and new ones: I don't know, Edge. Liand is boring as hell (sure he's a nice guy, but you know what they say...); I liked him better when his name was Lena. And the Haruchai have raised arrogance to the level of idiocy; they've insulted the valor and service of the Bloodguard. The Ramen are undeveloped stock characters, Anele is tiresome to read about (opinion, I suppose). Esmer has promise, as does the Mahdoubt, but SRD barely scratched the surface with those two.

I don’t see Liand as Lena. Completely different characters. I’ll agree that the Ramen are underdeveloped, but we’ve just started to get to know them. There have been other things on everybody’s mind. Esmer, Kassy, the Mahdoubt, and even Foul need some fleshing out. But like I said, there have been other things going on. On top of that, it has been 21 years since the last Covenant book was published. There’s just no conceivable way that SRD could have written this as if he was publishing it in 1986 instead of The Mirror of Her Dreams. He had to write it so that people new to Covenant wouldn’t feel lost if they tried it. That doesn’t necessarily make for good literature, but this is a different genre, and different rules apply here.

Idlewilder wrote:* As far as other POV characters blurring the narrative, other writers pull it off (after all, GRRM is wildly successful, though I'm not a fan myself). That would have been a "new direction." Maybe Liand would have been less bland. Although, I will grant that, however interesting a character, Hile Troy may have messed with the cohesion of TIW (he's forgiven, though, because his storyline was handled well and was as good as TC's).

Secondary POV characters, in the Covenant books, have never appeared until the story is firmly set. If we’re going to see them – like Hile Troy in the first chrons, or Linden in the second – it’s going to happen in the next two books. Couldn’t possibly have done it here.

Idlewilder wrote: * The threat of evil in Runes isn't all that subtle; it hits you across the face from the moment Linden arrives: Kevin's Dirt (please, don't get me started on Kevin's Dirt--- that's a whole other beef!) the historical and Nazi-like dominion of the Masters, the caesures, the skurj, the Illearth Stone and the Demondim, and Foul himself. The evil is pervasive. We just don't know where it is going yet. (Personally, I think the Land is cycling to its natural end, Foul perceives it and is content to just let it happen so he be free--- only Covenant needs to find a way to see that Foul isn't allowed to ravage the universe like he did the Land--- or something like that)

I’m not sure if that’s a criticism…or a response to something someone else said. What’s more subtle about the evil is that Foul isn’t in your face like he was during the last two chronicles. Is Esmer evil? He’s conflicted. The Demondim are, of course. The skurj likely are. We just haven’t seen any of that yet. I do think the sense of evil is more subtle, and subconsciously that may be turning readers off. To me, it was a welcome departure. If Foul had been at the beginning of the book again doing his “Fool…groveler” routine, I would have been disappointed.

burgs, we're not as far apart on this as it seems. It all boils down to perception; we're seeing similar things, but you seem to like it, and I don't.

First, LOTR isn't really three interconnected novels like the Covenant books, it is one novel broken into three (artificially imposed) parts by publishers. Tolkien did not write it with the intention of selling a trilogy. Thus they didn't need 3 (6?) climaxes (though, for the record, everyone of them works at least as well as Runes' wouldn't you say?).

I concede that Linden is a strong, fully developed character and take nothing from her--- Nor do I believe her one dimensional. I never argued otherwise. But she, like Covenant before her, was more interesting conflicted. I still say she lacks anything like internal conflict in Runes. Her path is clear. Yeah, she would save the Land she loves if she can, but not at the expense of Jeremiah. She's a parent, every parent would tell you the same thing (including SRD, if I might presume to speak for someone else). She proved it by daring the caesure, throwing her own blow at the Arch of Time to serve her ultimate goal of finding (not TC) but Jeremiah. And there's nothing wrong with that, consistency-wise.
And good for her she learned the use of wild magic better than anyone, but I can't seem to work up any enthusiasm for it--- recalling the warning about unearned knowledge.
Adept, resolute characters are boring. It's why TC was so interesting in the first place. That guy was messed up, and fun to read about.
Is she responsible for the plight of the Land by giving Joan back her ring? Yep. It'll be fun seeing her deal with that guilt (she's kind of avoided it so far), but the skurj are probably gonna beat her to the punch of ultimate destruction.

Comparing Liand to Lena. In what way are they significantly different. If TC hadn't raped her, don't you think she would have latched onto him like Liand did to Linden? Look at her in TPTP. That's Liand in 47 years (well, maybe not as crazy).

I was responding to someone elses post about the subtlety of evil. Nope. Lots of evil coming down the pike. Things like pretty bleak. Cue the Unbeliever.

I've read LOTR more times than I care to admit, so I'm aware of it being six books, yeah. Each with minor climaxes. The first "book" ended with Frodo collapsing at the Ford; the second with Sam and Frodo bidding a private farewell to the company; the third with Gandalf and Pippin riding to Minas Tirith; the fourth with the Orcs capturing Frodo; the fifth with "the eagles are coming, the eagles are coming!", and the sixth with the departure of the "chosen" over the seas and Sam returning home. Completing a "There and Back Again" theme. None of the climaxes at the end of the books are particularly strong, so I would have to disagree with you.

Don't get me wrong. I think Tolkien is the Shakespeare of this genre, and that LOTR is superior to every epic/high/heroic fantasy ever written. But the internal resolutions within each book were more important than the actual climax at the end of the book - although the end of the fourth book was one heck of a climax.

I suppose you could look at Runes in a similar light, that the sum of the parts is more important than the end - but like you said, we're not far apart. You didn't like it, and I did.

Idlewilder wrote:Thank you, Edge. All is forgiven.
However, in the spirit of healthy debate, I will not give up my reasonable criticism of Runes, though I do recognize that two adults can agree to disagree.

Thank you for your graciousness; I really appreciate it. And very well stated; of course we can agree to disagree.

I'm not going to post a point-by-point discussion, because burgs66 has already done so, making exactly the same points I would have, and probably far more articulately.

Idlewilder wrote:burgs, we're not as far apart on this as it seems. It all boils down to perception; we're seeing similar things, but you seem to like it, and I don't.

Well, I'm in total agreement with you there. I really believe our differing viewpoints ultimately come down down to perception and personal preference. I liked the direction SRD took; you didn't; neither viewpoint is right or wrong.

Oh, there is actually one point I'd like to comment on:

Idlewilder wrote: If you had to pinpoint it, what would you say Runes is the story of? For instance, LFB is the story of the quest for the staff, TIW is, well, the war, etc. Runes is the story of...?

I have two responses to this: The first, which (forgive me) is rather trite, is that 'any plot that can be put in a nutshell deserves to stay there'. In other words, I don't see complexity of narrative as being a shortcoming; quite the opposite.

Secondly: For me, a summation of any of SRD's works would be in terms of broader themes, rather than basic story-telling. I think of his writing more in terms of 'the nature of reality', 'the ethics of violence versus non-violence', 'the power of guilt', etc.

Despite my earlier dismissiveness, this is actually turning out to be one of the most interesting and intelligent threads in this forum.

Idlewilder wrote: If you had to pinpoint it, what would you say Runes is the story of? For instance, LFB is the story of the quest for the staff

Spoiler

You could boil Runes down to "find the staff of law"!

I also think this book explores personal conflicts of character. The Masters extreme nature morphing into dominance - and refusing to doubt their believes. Juxtaposed against that is Stave's transformation (enabled by the Ranyhyn). The Ramen's extreme nature remaining in service - Juxtaposed by the several who will actually ride!! (how might that change their relationship with the great horses?!) Then there is the "evil" Ur-Viles - transformed into good; service against Foul. Then there is Esmer conflicted within himself. Anele conflicted by external possesors. And then there is Linden - lost among impossible demands.

Lastly there is Lord Foul. Whispering words here and there. You can almost believe that he isn't the major overt source of the problems of the Land / Earth. Linden thru Joan caused the Falls. Kastenessen has probably let the Skurj out. (Perhaps a Falls broke the Durance?) We heard the Elohim speaking of Croyel and Sandgorgons. Perhaps consuming a Raver has unintended evil consequences. Maybe Lord Foul is still debilitated by his last lost to Covenant and can do nought but nudge things here and there.

I hope the following books provide an uptick in action; but I don't begrudge SRD using Runes to establish a baseline for the personal and individual tranformation of character that we will see.

Incidentally... A lot of comment has been made about SRD's less elaborate writing style now, and after the Q&A with him today, it turns out he knows this. He said something to the effect that "years of struggle" and advancing maturity ("I'm no longer young and vigorous" or similar) have pared down and simplified his style. It's not because he's being rubbish, it's because he's a different person to the one who wrote the previous books.

CovenantJr wrote:Incidentally... A lot of comment has been made about SRD's less elaborate writing style now, and after the Q&A with him today, it turns out he knows this. He said something to the effect that "years of struggle" and advancing maturity ("I'm no longer young and vigorous" or similar) have pared down and simplified his style. It's not because he's being rubbish, it's because he's a different person to the one who wrote the previous books.

I agree - although I still need a dictionary to understand ALL the words!!!