Hi all. This is my first post, but I've been lurking for a while. I appreciate the perceptive and good natured exchange on the Watch, and wish my first post could have been on a more positive note, but I gotta get this off my chest and see if anyone else feels the same way.
I just finished the book today, after months of anticipation and a re-read of the First and Second Chronicles. I've read everything by SRD except the Reed Stephens books and count him among the greatest living writers (it's hard to rank his work because of their apples-to-oranges relationship, but 1st chrons is near and dear), and I reverence him greatly--- but I think he took a misstep with Runes. It isn't enough to say that "he's trying a new direction" or that Runes is the prologue to the rest of the series; I doubt he would countenance that excuse himself! SRD's greatest gift, IMO, is his three dimensional and immersive characterizations and his epic scope, both of which were lacking in any appreciable degree in Runes.
Sure, we get lots of Linden (and little else, character wise), but her story was told, to great effect, in 2cnd chrons. She's just not that interesting in Runes. She's a one-note protagonaist (Jeremiah) with whom we only have a lingering leftover affection! (I knew Thomas Covenant; Thomas Covenant was a friend of mine; Linden Avery, you are no Thomas Covenant!). But that's not her fault--- if SRD truly wanted to try a bold new direction, while being true to the integrity of TC's death in WGW, why not give us multiple protagonists (which, of course, probably would have required a totally different story), akin to TIW with Hile Troy. Don't get me wrong, I like Linden, but she's just not that interesting.
As for epic scope, we do get hints of it, portentious names dropped too sparingly: skurj, Kastenessen, the Demondim, caesures, etc, but thus far it is a phantom menace (ahem!)--- even Foul seems like he's kinda sitting this one out (surely classic SRD misdirection). I know this isn't your Daddy's Thomas Covenant, but wanting a Black Hat isn't a lack of sophistication, it's a plot requirement! Of course, if I had to predict, I would say that SRD's prediliction for Germanic mythology will be more pronounced in the Last Chrons than in the Gap--- I sense a ragnarok in store for the Land (I know he's already stated elsewhere that he's going to destroy the Land, but ragnarok was followed by a rebirth, and the chronological-theme of the Last Chrons puts me in the mind of the cyclical nature of history and evolution; someone else has already likened Liand to the new Adam, but maybe he'll be closer to Lif).
I don't think Runes was a "great" book, not in the way any of his other published works are great. I don't even think it was all that satisfying (I waited 21 years for this!) BUT it was nice to return to the Land (I just wish they didn't always have such a hard time over there! It kinda undervalues all of TC's and Linden's efforts and sacrifices a little bit--- couldn't we have seen a place that was beleaguered but thriving at the same time, a la LFB?). I will say that it started superbly, hit the wall in Mithil Stonedown (awful re-intro to the people of the Land) and was only mildly entertaining FOR THE NEXT THREE HUNDRED PAGES! And then from the appearance of the Demondim on it improved, but by then we only have another 80 or so pages left. Imagine if that authorially indulgent chunk in the middle had been trimmed by an astute editor (or an SRD not run amok), what the last half of Runes could have been like! Runes needed Covenant! The events in Revelstone after his arrival properly belong in the first book, along with some kind of climax (the cliffhanger was not only a cheat, but amateurish--- do we really need a cliffhanger to get us to buy Fatal Revenant?).
But flawed as Runes was, and despite my frustrations, in the end SRD is a writer that, invariably, pays off. I'll mark this one as an aberration, and give him the benefit of the doubt that the rest is gonna knock my socks off--- I just wish I had felt at least a little breeze on my toes already!
Is Runes Flawed?
Moderator: dlbpharmd
-
dANdeLION
- Lord
- Posts: 23836
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:22 am
- Location: In the jungle, the mighty jungle
- Contact:
No, it is not flawed.
Dandelion don't tell no lies
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion
I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.
High priest of THOOOTP
*
* This post carries Jay's seal of approval
Dandelion will make you wise
Tell me if she laughs or cries
Blow away dandelion
I'm afraid there's no denying
I'm just a dandelion
a fate I don't deserve.
High priest of THOOOTP
* * This post carries Jay's seal of approval
Hi, idlewilder. Many of your specific points and your general air of disappointment resonated with me.
As you say, we’ve already done Linden. Just as Covenant had found his center in the First Chronicles, requiring a Linden in the Second Chronicles, so too does Linden need to be succeeded. She is no longer the scared little girl in the attic or the hopeless teenager at her mother’s bedside. You can’t go back on those things, so what is left for her in Runes? Only to be a bereaved mother. But that’s not something about Linden; it’s an event happening to Linden. What can you do with it, character-development wise?
And yes it’s true that Linden is no Covenant. I’ve always found SRD’s female characters to be far less believable than his male ones. I would disagree with what SRD has said Lester del Rey told him regarding Linden, that female characters can’t carry the action because they are essentially passive. But I think that there are many male authors who cannot create female protagonists as convincing as their male ones, and vice versa. Linden has always sounded to me like a (male) authorial voice, and this grates.
The names are dropped too sparingly. It’s as if the entire story of The Wounded Land took place in Mithil Stonedown with Covenant and Linden hearing mysterious names such as Sunbane, clave, and na-Mhoram without ever finding out what any of it meant, and the book ended with Sunder finally deciding to help them. That would have been a pretty lame 450 pages.
A lot of people defend Runes on the grounds that it’s merely a set-up book for the next three, but why in the world would a 500 page set-up be necessary on our third go around in The Land? We only got a chapter or two of Real World setup in Lord Foul’s Bane, plus a brief introduction to The Land in Mithil Stonedown, and then we were off and running – and that was in the very first book. Now that we know so much more about The Land, why do we require 20 times the set-up that the very first book required?
You make a good point regarding editing. Writers, even the best of them, need editors. Editorial practice in sf has changed radically over the past 25 years. I have read SRD’s account of writing The Illearth War, where IIRC he said 1/3 of it had to be cut for reasons of space and plot tightness (Korik’s story was one of the excised parts). Nowadays, no editor would cut length from a potential best-selling author; he would extend the series. These Final Chronicles could yet go the way of The Wheel of Time.
What disappointed me besides the lack of compelling characters or other POV characters to share the stage with Linden was the lack of sense of wonder, that which makes sf what it is (when it is good). Where were the new Bloodguard, or Giants, or Earthblood, or Sunbane, or venom, or One Tree? Did Runes even attempt to be imaginative?
A lot of it seemed to me to be almost fearfully conservative. It’s almost as if SRD took the series over from another writer and is afraid to create anything too new for fear of offending the fans of the original works. Linden’s best friend is Megan Roman? Why? Roman would have to be a good deal older that LA (she was TC’s attorney back when Linden was only 20). Doctors and lawyers don’t famously pal around together (quite the contrary). Sure you could explain it away – two of somewhat few professional women in a small town – but that doesn’t sound like the right answer. What does is that Roman had a prior existence, so SRD didn’t have to invent someone new for LA to befriend.
Why does Esmer have to be Cail’s son? Why does Anele have to be Sunder’s and Hollian’s? Why do the Ramen and Haruchai and stonedowners have to be going along much as they were 7000 years before?
I’m frustrated because I know SRD is capable of being far more inventive. Some get offended when any aspect of Runes is challenged; well, I get offended when people imply (as too-ardent defense of Runes does) that this is the best that SRD can do. This is not what made the first two Chronicles runaway bestsellers that comprised the biggest fantasy series in-between Tolkien and Jordan.
As you say, we’ve already done Linden. Just as Covenant had found his center in the First Chronicles, requiring a Linden in the Second Chronicles, so too does Linden need to be succeeded. She is no longer the scared little girl in the attic or the hopeless teenager at her mother’s bedside. You can’t go back on those things, so what is left for her in Runes? Only to be a bereaved mother. But that’s not something about Linden; it’s an event happening to Linden. What can you do with it, character-development wise?
And yes it’s true that Linden is no Covenant. I’ve always found SRD’s female characters to be far less believable than his male ones. I would disagree with what SRD has said Lester del Rey told him regarding Linden, that female characters can’t carry the action because they are essentially passive. But I think that there are many male authors who cannot create female protagonists as convincing as their male ones, and vice versa. Linden has always sounded to me like a (male) authorial voice, and this grates.
The names are dropped too sparingly. It’s as if the entire story of The Wounded Land took place in Mithil Stonedown with Covenant and Linden hearing mysterious names such as Sunbane, clave, and na-Mhoram without ever finding out what any of it meant, and the book ended with Sunder finally deciding to help them. That would have been a pretty lame 450 pages.
A lot of people defend Runes on the grounds that it’s merely a set-up book for the next three, but why in the world would a 500 page set-up be necessary on our third go around in The Land? We only got a chapter or two of Real World setup in Lord Foul’s Bane, plus a brief introduction to The Land in Mithil Stonedown, and then we were off and running – and that was in the very first book. Now that we know so much more about The Land, why do we require 20 times the set-up that the very first book required?
You make a good point regarding editing. Writers, even the best of them, need editors. Editorial practice in sf has changed radically over the past 25 years. I have read SRD’s account of writing The Illearth War, where IIRC he said 1/3 of it had to be cut for reasons of space and plot tightness (Korik’s story was one of the excised parts). Nowadays, no editor would cut length from a potential best-selling author; he would extend the series. These Final Chronicles could yet go the way of The Wheel of Time.
What disappointed me besides the lack of compelling characters or other POV characters to share the stage with Linden was the lack of sense of wonder, that which makes sf what it is (when it is good). Where were the new Bloodguard, or Giants, or Earthblood, or Sunbane, or venom, or One Tree? Did Runes even attempt to be imaginative?
A lot of it seemed to me to be almost fearfully conservative. It’s almost as if SRD took the series over from another writer and is afraid to create anything too new for fear of offending the fans of the original works. Linden’s best friend is Megan Roman? Why? Roman would have to be a good deal older that LA (she was TC’s attorney back when Linden was only 20). Doctors and lawyers don’t famously pal around together (quite the contrary). Sure you could explain it away – two of somewhat few professional women in a small town – but that doesn’t sound like the right answer. What does is that Roman had a prior existence, so SRD didn’t have to invent someone new for LA to befriend.
Why does Esmer have to be Cail’s son? Why does Anele have to be Sunder’s and Hollian’s? Why do the Ramen and Haruchai and stonedowners have to be going along much as they were 7000 years before?
I’m frustrated because I know SRD is capable of being far more inventive. Some get offended when any aspect of Runes is challenged; well, I get offended when people imply (as too-ardent defense of Runes does) that this is the best that SRD can do. This is not what made the first two Chronicles runaway bestsellers that comprised the biggest fantasy series in-between Tolkien and Jordan.
-
Idlewilder
- Servant of the Land
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:47 pm
That isn't an answer, it's a quip.
When TWL came out, it wasn't necessary (however desirable) to have read the First Chronicles--- not only could it stand on its own, but it created new fans. Do you honestly believe a fragment like Runes can draw new readers? Is it of interest to anyone BUT TC fans wanting to know "what happens next"?
Runes is not a book to build (or maintain) a reputation on. The compitition out there for our hard earned $ at the cash wrap is much better than in 1978 or 1980. I expected more for my $26.95, especially if the author expects me to plunk down another thirty or so bucks three times over the next nine years (Nine years?!?).
We can be fans without being idolators. Is there anyone willing to admit that Runes is as good, honestly, as any of the six books that preceeded it? I'm not saying it's awful, but it is certainly sub-par SRD--- and that is just plain disappointing.
When TWL came out, it wasn't necessary (however desirable) to have read the First Chronicles--- not only could it stand on its own, but it created new fans. Do you honestly believe a fragment like Runes can draw new readers? Is it of interest to anyone BUT TC fans wanting to know "what happens next"?
Runes is not a book to build (or maintain) a reputation on. The compitition out there for our hard earned $ at the cash wrap is much better than in 1978 or 1980. I expected more for my $26.95, especially if the author expects me to plunk down another thirty or so bucks three times over the next nine years (Nine years?!?).
We can be fans without being idolators. Is there anyone willing to admit that Runes is as good, honestly, as any of the six books that preceeded it? I'm not saying it's awful, but it is certainly sub-par SRD--- and that is just plain disappointing.
-
Idlewilder
- Servant of the Land
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:47 pm
Excellent post, Thaale, esp. concerning Linden's internal conflict (or the lack thereof). The "quip" response was to Dandelion's unconsidered remark.
Challenging Runes does not change the validity or brilliance of the 1st or 2cnd chrons--- nothing can take away their much deserved success, but by virtue of publication, the author invites criticism, and it is no service to passively accept a work that weakens the whole. SRD can do better (and will, no doubt), but he may be writing to a readership that has plateaued, so to speak, because of Runes' dwindling appeal
Runes needed to have a BANG!, to be significantly more interesting. Let's hope SRD can reel us back in with Fatal Revenant.
Challenging Runes does not change the validity or brilliance of the 1st or 2cnd chrons--- nothing can take away their much deserved success, but by virtue of publication, the author invites criticism, and it is no service to passively accept a work that weakens the whole. SRD can do better (and will, no doubt), but he may be writing to a readership that has plateaued, so to speak, because of Runes' dwindling appeal
Runes needed to have a BANG!, to be significantly more interesting. Let's hope SRD can reel us back in with Fatal Revenant.
"Flawed" is not the word I would use, but I would say that in general this book is weaker than most others SRD has written (I think The Real Story was weaker, but the rest of the Gap Cycle was fantastic). I still found it entertaining, however, and I do believe that with the next books the story will pick up tremendously.
As for Roman, I have no idea. Maybe you're right that he simply found it more convenient to use an established character rather than creating a new one to fill a relatively minor role.
This is why: SRD had planned for these things to happen from the time he wrote those events in the second chronicles. Esmer had to be Cail's son because that was the consequence of his succumbing to the lure of the merewives. The same goes with Anele. He created those loose ends in the second chronicles so that they would lead where they did in Runes. It doesn't have anything to do with lack of originality this time around as he borrows past ideas, he had been planning for this to happen.Why does Esmer have to be Cail?s son? Why does Anele have to be Sunder?s and Hollian?s? Why do the Ramen and Haruchai and stonedowners have to be going along much as they were 7000 years before?
As for Roman, I have no idea. Maybe you're right that he simply found it more convenient to use an established character rather than creating a new one to fill a relatively minor role.
Anyone perfect must be lying, anything easy has its cost, anyone plain can be lovely, anyone loved can be lost.
-
Idlewilder
- Servant of the Land
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:47 pm
Merely "entertaining" is not good enough--- it is not what we've come to expect from SRD and the Covenant books. At least with the Gap books, the Real Story had the luxury of no expectations--- it was the (enigmatic) opening salvo in a new epic, and it was evocative because it was all we had. If the Real Story is weak, it is only in retrospect of the rest of the Gap (personally, I read it in one sitting; it had the effect of the train wreck you can't take your eyes off of).
I stand by "flawed" because in the context of the rest of TCTC, it does not wholly deliver (i mean in reader satisfaction, not in plot/character, etc--- although it is pretty weak there, too)
After 21 years, we get an underdeveloped 500 page "prologue" that just isn't as engrossing as its predecessors. I would rather have seen a thin, but tightly packed volume, like the Real Story if necessary, that got us to the same place in Revelstone, without the 300+ pages of walking around and talking to the Ramen.
And a climax might have been nice, too. Consider every other climax:
LFB: Show down in Kiril Threndor
TIW: Garroting Deep, Cavern of the EarthBlood, Elena v. Kevin
TPTP: Fouls' Creche
TWL: The caamora of the Unhomed (hitherto the weakest, but still excellent)
TOT: The Isle of the One Tree
WGW: Showdown in Kiril Threndor again (and the best)
So what was the climax in Runes, because I missed it? Was it the Waynhim handing over the Staff to Linden, or the chat in the Close. Either way, it was weak.
In fact, the more I consider it, "entertaining" may be a degree exagerated. I might say "harmless diversion" if I weren't so disappointed.
With all due respect, UrLord, hoping that the next books will pay off (and I am among those who believe they will) does not mitigate the failure of THIS one. Getting published in today's sophisticated (jaded) market is no easy thing; a writer has to earn it. If Runes was the debut of a new novelist would it have seen the light of day? Runes was published on the strength of 1st and 2cnd chrons, not on its own merits.
I stand by "flawed" because in the context of the rest of TCTC, it does not wholly deliver (i mean in reader satisfaction, not in plot/character, etc--- although it is pretty weak there, too)
After 21 years, we get an underdeveloped 500 page "prologue" that just isn't as engrossing as its predecessors. I would rather have seen a thin, but tightly packed volume, like the Real Story if necessary, that got us to the same place in Revelstone, without the 300+ pages of walking around and talking to the Ramen.
And a climax might have been nice, too. Consider every other climax:
LFB: Show down in Kiril Threndor
TIW: Garroting Deep, Cavern of the EarthBlood, Elena v. Kevin
TPTP: Fouls' Creche
TWL: The caamora of the Unhomed (hitherto the weakest, but still excellent)
TOT: The Isle of the One Tree
WGW: Showdown in Kiril Threndor again (and the best)
So what was the climax in Runes, because I missed it? Was it the Waynhim handing over the Staff to Linden, or the chat in the Close. Either way, it was weak.
In fact, the more I consider it, "entertaining" may be a degree exagerated. I might say "harmless diversion" if I weren't so disappointed.
With all due respect, UrLord, hoping that the next books will pay off (and I am among those who believe they will) does not mitigate the failure of THIS one. Getting published in today's sophisticated (jaded) market is no easy thing; a writer has to earn it. If Runes was the debut of a new novelist would it have seen the light of day? Runes was published on the strength of 1st and 2cnd chrons, not on its own merits.
-
CovenantJr
- Lord
- Posts: 12608
- Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2002 9:10 pm
- Location: North Wales
For the critics, what, specifically, would you have done differently? If I may be a bit presumptious, the one big thing I would not have had in this story was Linden's time travel sequence. Instead, Linden would have sought the Staff across the Land in the present. Perhaps she could have been rescued more directly by the Ur-Vles and Ramen from Mithil Stonedown, then set out (after bonding with the Ranyhyn and doing the horserite thing with Stave) north across the Land to seek the Staff, which could then have been found, maybe in some new Forest, where the Waynhim have hidden it for centuries. The Demondim could then have been unleashed from a caesure (perhaps by Esmer still) and we could have had a chase to Revelstone with the book ending just as it did.
The difference would have been more action and more of the Land visited. I suppose in fact that what I like least about Runes is the relative compactness of the story: it covers too little geograophic territory (every other Covenant books has wandered all over the place) and occupies about a week of real time.
The difference would have been more action and more of the Land visited. I suppose in fact that what I like least about Runes is the relative compactness of the story: it covers too little geograophic territory (every other Covenant books has wandered all over the place) and occupies about a week of real time.
At this point it's pretty much just a matter of opinion. I didn't think "The Real Story" was just weak in comparison to the rest of the Gap books, I thought it was just plain weak while, and just after, I read it. The only reason I bothered to pick up the next book in the series was because I had also thought LFB was slow, so I was willing to give the next book a shot, and it completely blew away my expectations. I enjoyed Runes more than I enjoyed The Real Story, but the difference this time around is that there is no second book I can immediately pick up to continue the story.
Since I've seen SRD do worse (in my opinion, any way) in terms of a beginning book and then go on to write the rest of the series that completely blows other Sci-Fi books away (once again my opinion, of course), I'm willing to withold judgment on the Last Chronicles until I've read them all. What really irks me are those doomsayers who say "O! Woe unto those who calleth themselves Donaldson fans! The end is nigh! He hath lost all his ability, and the Last Chronicles will all sucketh like unto ingesting raw sewage!"
Bah, I say!
Since I've seen SRD do worse (in my opinion, any way) in terms of a beginning book and then go on to write the rest of the series that completely blows other Sci-Fi books away (once again my opinion, of course), I'm willing to withold judgment on the Last Chronicles until I've read them all. What really irks me are those doomsayers who say "O! Woe unto those who calleth themselves Donaldson fans! The end is nigh! He hath lost all his ability, and the Last Chronicles will all sucketh like unto ingesting raw sewage!"
Bah, I say!
Anyone perfect must be lying, anything easy has its cost, anyone plain can be lovely, anyone loved can be lost.
Aleksandr, as you say, it might be presumptuous to say what I would have done. What I expected the author of the prior two Chronicles to do is something else.
As I have said before, I expected the story to be a lot less narrowly confined in time* and place, so I agree with you there. I expected to see some – more – new ideas after a 21-year hiatus, so I was disappointed there as well. As noted repeatedly by myself and others, we expected to see new characters – by which is meant new POV characters such as Linden herself in The Wounded Land. And I expected more action.
I don’t think the sky is falling, and I don’t think the quite specific criticisms that many level-headed people have written regarding Runes constitute panic. I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with pointing out that the emperor’s magnificent new robes are actually looking pretty threadbare in spots.
I don’t quite understand the attitude of those like UrLord who are “irked” by those they deride as doomsayers. Caricaturing legitimate criticism doesn’t prove anything. I suppose Paul McCartney still has a few fans ready to loyally jump up and say his latest work blows away anything he ever did with the Beatles. That doesn’t make it so. Donaldson has gone from being the #1 name in fantasy to being a face on a milk carton, and there’s a reason for that. A lot of his readers would like to see him get back to the top of the heap. But pretending he’s still there and that he never left isn’t a realistic option for many.
As for the Gap series, IMO it was interesting at times but deeply flawed. Donaldson has an imaginative but very untidy mind that is better suited to fantasy than anything approaching hard sf. He constantly confused interplanetary and interstellar distances in the Gap series, which pretty much says it all about his abilities on that side of the genre. If you seriously can consider those the best sf books ever, your experience must be extremely limited (I also assume that’s so by your use of the term “Sci-Fi,” which most sf fans pronounce skiffy and loathe).
I think he may be skating on thin ice with time travel. I’m not sure whether he sat down and worked out what rules will apply to his version of time travel. I hope so, but from Runes I’m not really sure.
I have no idea if the Last Chronicles will “suck.” I sincerely hope not. They’re ¼ over without coming close to hitting stride, which is not promising.
If anyone really wants three more books like Runes, or thinks that stringing four such books together would make a good series, I’ll be glad to listen to the reasoning.
*Yes, it spanned thousands of years in a trivial sense, but only a few days of Linden’s personal time.
As I have said before, I expected the story to be a lot less narrowly confined in time* and place, so I agree with you there. I expected to see some – more – new ideas after a 21-year hiatus, so I was disappointed there as well. As noted repeatedly by myself and others, we expected to see new characters – by which is meant new POV characters such as Linden herself in The Wounded Land. And I expected more action.
I don’t think the sky is falling, and I don’t think the quite specific criticisms that many level-headed people have written regarding Runes constitute panic. I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with pointing out that the emperor’s magnificent new robes are actually looking pretty threadbare in spots.
I don’t quite understand the attitude of those like UrLord who are “irked” by those they deride as doomsayers. Caricaturing legitimate criticism doesn’t prove anything. I suppose Paul McCartney still has a few fans ready to loyally jump up and say his latest work blows away anything he ever did with the Beatles. That doesn’t make it so. Donaldson has gone from being the #1 name in fantasy to being a face on a milk carton, and there’s a reason for that. A lot of his readers would like to see him get back to the top of the heap. But pretending he’s still there and that he never left isn’t a realistic option for many.
As for the Gap series, IMO it was interesting at times but deeply flawed. Donaldson has an imaginative but very untidy mind that is better suited to fantasy than anything approaching hard sf. He constantly confused interplanetary and interstellar distances in the Gap series, which pretty much says it all about his abilities on that side of the genre. If you seriously can consider those the best sf books ever, your experience must be extremely limited (I also assume that’s so by your use of the term “Sci-Fi,” which most sf fans pronounce skiffy and loathe).
I think he may be skating on thin ice with time travel. I’m not sure whether he sat down and worked out what rules will apply to his version of time travel. I hope so, but from Runes I’m not really sure.
I have no idea if the Last Chronicles will “suck.” I sincerely hope not. They’re ¼ over without coming close to hitting stride, which is not promising.
If anyone really wants three more books like Runes, or thinks that stringing four such books together would make a good series, I’ll be glad to listen to the reasoning.
*Yes, it spanned thousands of years in a trivial sense, but only a few days of Linden’s personal time.
-
Idlewilder
- Servant of the Land
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:47 pm
UrLord: "At this point it's pretty much just a matter of opinion."
Of course. In the end, all criticism is reduced to a matter of opinion. But we can say certain things definitively based on comparison and expectation (to the other TC books):
* Weak climax, if any (see my above post)
* A one note, resolute POV character without the internal conflict that makes all other SRD's protagonists stand out (and I am not a Linden hater!)
* Horribly drawn-out pacing--- SRD at his most self indulgent! Really, all that build up to get to the horserite (the consequences of which figure prominently in the conclusion), and it gets glossed over in exposition?!? And, no, it isn't the same with TC's Glimmermere episode in TIW, which was handled with smug confidence--- and it worked because it wasn't central. But, hey!, we do get a great deal hiking-through the Southron Range
* A return to the abuse of vernacular English: replace the tirelessly used condign, puissance or formication with any of their synonyms and you'll have an editor tell you to get more imaginative with word choice--- just because their obscure by modern standards dosn't mean they can't become cliched. I'm as impressed as anyone else by SRD's vocabulary, but he's made the magic and otherness of those words ordinary by such heavy usage. Try this: play a drinking game with the vocab. Take a shot every time you see an "SRD vocab word" (you know the ones I mean); you'll be trashed by the end of the chapter.
* Lack of fully fleshed out original characters (if the Haruchai are that dense how in the heck have they survived 7000 years to become Masters?). Liand, Stave and Esmer are no Sunder, Bannor or Mhoram.
But in the end, my criticisms are not so much directed at the larger story so much as the misdirected structure of Runes. Naturally, UrLord, you'll withhold judgment on the Last Chrons because you havn't read them yet--- only a small part of them, but to excuse Runes on that basis is akin to blind faith. Good or bad, Runes has to stand on its own
BTW, Aleksandr, I think your excellent question of "what would you have done differently?" deserves to be explored in its own thread.
Of course. In the end, all criticism is reduced to a matter of opinion. But we can say certain things definitively based on comparison and expectation (to the other TC books):
* Weak climax, if any (see my above post)
* A one note, resolute POV character without the internal conflict that makes all other SRD's protagonists stand out (and I am not a Linden hater!)
* Horribly drawn-out pacing--- SRD at his most self indulgent! Really, all that build up to get to the horserite (the consequences of which figure prominently in the conclusion), and it gets glossed over in exposition?!? And, no, it isn't the same with TC's Glimmermere episode in TIW, which was handled with smug confidence--- and it worked because it wasn't central. But, hey!, we do get a great deal hiking-through the Southron Range
* A return to the abuse of vernacular English: replace the tirelessly used condign, puissance or formication with any of their synonyms and you'll have an editor tell you to get more imaginative with word choice--- just because their obscure by modern standards dosn't mean they can't become cliched. I'm as impressed as anyone else by SRD's vocabulary, but he's made the magic and otherness of those words ordinary by such heavy usage. Try this: play a drinking game with the vocab. Take a shot every time you see an "SRD vocab word" (you know the ones I mean); you'll be trashed by the end of the chapter.
* Lack of fully fleshed out original characters (if the Haruchai are that dense how in the heck have they survived 7000 years to become Masters?). Liand, Stave and Esmer are no Sunder, Bannor or Mhoram.
But in the end, my criticisms are not so much directed at the larger story so much as the misdirected structure of Runes. Naturally, UrLord, you'll withhold judgment on the Last Chrons because you havn't read them yet--- only a small part of them, but to excuse Runes on that basis is akin to blind faith. Good or bad, Runes has to stand on its own
BTW, Aleksandr, I think your excellent question of "what would you have done differently?" deserves to be explored in its own thread.
Oh, bah - do we have to wade through this whole morass yet again? Wasn't one 'I hate Runes' thread more than enough?
So, SRD didn't take the particular direction you wanted/expected... Boo-hoo, call the waaaambulance. The fact remains: this is the most brilliant piece of writing SRD has done yet. Great characterisation (both new characters & development of old ones), excellent cliff-hanger ending, impeccable pacing, superlative verbiage, fantastic plot structure.
So, SRD didn't take the particular direction you wanted/expected... Boo-hoo, call the waaaambulance. The fact remains: this is the most brilliant piece of writing SRD has done yet. Great characterisation (both new characters & development of old ones), excellent cliff-hanger ending, impeccable pacing, superlative verbiage, fantastic plot structure.
Check out my digital art at www.brian.co.za
All I'm saying is that even if you didn't think Runes was a fitting continuation of the Covenant series, it's a little eary to be saying that the Last Chronicles as a whole is a failure. That statement was more in response to some of the Amazon.com reviews than anything said here. There's a difference between saying that the new book isn't as good as any of the previous ones and saying that Donaldson's latest book sucks, therefore he has lost all talent and ability as an author.I don?t quite understand the attitude of those like UrLord who are ?irked? by those they deride as doomsayers. Caricaturing legitimate criticism doesn?t prove anything. I suppose Paul McCartney still has a few fans ready to loyally jump up and say his latest work blows away anything he ever did with the Beatles. That doesn?t make it so.
As for the Gap series, IMO it was interesting at times but deeply flawed. Donaldson has an imaginative but very untidy mind that is better suited to fantasy than anything approaching hard sf. He constantly confused interplanetary and interstellar distances in the Gap series, which pretty much says it all about his abilities on that side of the genre.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you're judging the merits of the story mostly by the accuracy of the science involved, and that really doesn't mean much to me. If I wanted scientific accuracy, there are plenty of textbooks available to me that can accomplish that.
There's a problem with that term? I never knew...If you seriously can consider those the best sf books ever, your experience must be extremely limited (I also assume that?s so by your use of the term ?Sci-Fi,? which most sf fans pronounce skiffy and loathe).
Anyone perfect must be lying, anything easy has its cost, anyone plain can be lovely, anyone loved can be lost.
Oh, well if it's a fact, then nobody dare disagree with you.The fact remains: this is the most brilliant piece of writing SRD has done yet.
Why is it so important to a few that not a single less-than-fawning word be left to stand unchallenged? Does it affect your enjoyment of the book to know not everyone found it perfect?
Lampooning anything short of adulation as "hate" doesn't get you anywhere. Why does the case you'd like to disprove first have to be caricatured out of all resemblance to reality before you take it on? It doesn't sound like you have any answers to the real criticisms that have been offered, or you'd be giving those instead and not tearing down a paper tiger.
-
Idlewilder
- Servant of the Land
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:47 pm
Edge, I have neither time nor inclination to respond to your rude and dismissive post (besides, Thaale said it better and nicer than I would have).
Remember, just because we arn't on the Runes adulation train dosn't mean we arn't still (intelligent) fans of the chrons. (one might say "especially because we arn't..." though)
Remember, just because we arn't on the Runes adulation train dosn't mean we arn't still (intelligent) fans of the chrons. (one might say "especially because we arn't..." though)
Fair enough, UrLord. I haven’t read all the Amazon reviews.
Well, that once astronomical gaffe was an example. I found it hard to get into a story that was written as sf when it was constantly made obvious that the author was so unfamiliar with the “s.” I always though the Gap series would have succeeded much better as contemporary fiction than as sf, especially the boardroom machinations.
I’m a big fan of Jack Vance’s, and speaking of perverse authorial decisions as we have been on another thread, it has also exasperated me that Vance chooses to forfeit 99% of his potential audience by burying himself in the backwater of sf, but then chooses to forfeit 99% of the sf audience by writing very vague and unscientific sf!
Yes, if you want to make the Vernor Vinge or Alastair Reynolds reader in your life grind his teeth, brightly refer to him as a fan of “Sci-Fi”.
To many hardcore sf readers, “Sci-Fi” fan suggests somebody who attends Xena conventions in costume. Not that I agree with that particular snobbery.
Well, that once astronomical gaffe was an example. I found it hard to get into a story that was written as sf when it was constantly made obvious that the author was so unfamiliar with the “s.” I always though the Gap series would have succeeded much better as contemporary fiction than as sf, especially the boardroom machinations.
I’m a big fan of Jack Vance’s, and speaking of perverse authorial decisions as we have been on another thread, it has also exasperated me that Vance chooses to forfeit 99% of his potential audience by burying himself in the backwater of sf, but then chooses to forfeit 99% of the sf audience by writing very vague and unscientific sf!
Yes, if you want to make the Vernor Vinge or Alastair Reynolds reader in your life grind his teeth, brightly refer to him as a fan of “Sci-Fi”.
To many hardcore sf readers, “Sci-Fi” fan suggests somebody who attends Xena conventions in costume. Not that I agree with that particular snobbery.-
CovenantJr
- Lord
- Posts: 12608
- Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2002 9:10 pm
- Location: North Wales
Bad day? I was just following your example of presenting opinion as fact. If you'd actually present anything substantive, I'd be glad to refute it more specifically. If you give me a paper tiger, I'll tear it up.Thaale wrote:Oh, well if it's a fact, then nobody dare disagree with you.The fact remains: this is the most brilliant piece of writing SRD has done yet.
Why is it so important to a few that not a single less-than-fawning word be left to stand unchallenged? Does it affect your enjoyment of the book to know not everyone found it perfect?
Lampooning anything short of adulation as "hate" doesn't get you anywhere. Why does the case you'd like to disprove first have to be caricatured out of all resemblance to reality before you take it on? It doesn't sound like you have any answers to the real criticisms that have been offered, or you'd be giving those instead and not tearing down a paper tiger.
As for "rude and dismissive"... "Hello, Pot: this is Kettle; do you read me? Come in, Kettle... over".
...arn't on the Runes adulation train dosn't mean we arn't still (intelligent) fans of the chrons.
No.. it dosn't mean you arn't.
Check out my digital art at www.brian.co.za