Kevin's Watch

OK, thanks Murrin point taken, a incorrect example.

Burgs66:

The overall point was that corporeal (I do know what it means, the question was rhetorical) and spiritual seem to be states which some characters can move between. Can Covenant become corporeal; well that depends on definition in the context of the land and this discussion. Is it limited to be corporeal in the same form as say Linden or Stave or does it include a form that is more akin to Esmer or the Elohim.

Despite taking me literally instead of figuratively, the effect of Physics are important and must be consistent to provide a frame of reference for the reader and also to validate the fabulous and magical: if everyone could fly, flying would not be magical but commonplace. Indeed the consistency of "magic" is also governed by Laws which must be compatible. Thus the power of White Gold; magic outside those laws.

That great distances can be travelled either through "magical" anticipation or in some cases by some form of translation, was not the point. That time can be distorted with or without the presence of the Staff of Law or White Gold, is far more interesting in the context of the Arch of Time. Nom, the Ranyhyn and the Elohim travel according to rules outside of linear time, they either have a vision of the future or translate from place to place and this is countenanced and sustained by Earthpower. The Ranyhyn have some native perceptions with regard to this as illustrated by their role in travelling to the past to regain the staff.

This is clearly acceptable within the context of "the law" as defined both in the presence and absence of the Staff (and since White Gold has been both present and absent it does not seem to be a direct influence). This "bending" of time is clearly not as violent as Caesures, but appears to be sustained by Earthpower.

TCs actual corporeal form (read body or corpse) is long since rotted so any manifistation that is substantial must be powered somehow. The likliest explanation is Earthpower, since this performs the same function for other characters.

Thus Covenant returning could be in a corporeal form in much the same way as an Elohim. Is he not the keystone of the Arch of Time; a keystone "holds together" an arch and was he not "infused" into the arch? The properties of his place in/as the Arch appear entirely consistent with the Elohims place in the Colossus and the Durance. Maybe he is Wild Magic but he no longer possesses the White Gold ring(s)

So it is possible that Covenant is able to be released or releases himself from the Arch and takes a corporeal form sustained by Earthpower. Is this not even similar to the properties of Elohim?

Well maybe, maybe not we'll have to wait and see, the good thing about a board such as this is the ability to speculate and let the mind wander through a remarkable creation, the Land. So in the spirit of the board I'll assume that your "NOs" are also only opinion.

Being in the Land is like having a dream, right?

An *empowered* dreamer, who knows he/she is dreaming, and has a hale and unconflicted mind, with a singular purpose, can do and be anything he/she wants to be/do in her/his dream!

And that is called "having a lucid dream" and in a *lucid dream* one can take charge of the dream and do exactly what one wants, and perhaps dream exactly what one wants!

Such a dreamer could "be as an Elohim" if he/she wanted! (Especially if he/she had dreamed of Elohim already - he/she can follow their inspiration!)

SRD has mentioned about tieing this series together with the Last Chronicles. Perhaps bringing the dream-like aspects to the fore again is maybe part of that intent.

Now check this out - aint the final chapter of WGW called "Apotheosis" - which means *BECOMING A GOD*!!!! [I don't have any TC books on me]

Also, doesn't "Elohim" mean "Gods"? Yes it does!

What's more, checkout what SRD recently said on the GI:

... neither Troy nor Covenant actually died in the Land: rather they were transformed; became beings of an entirely different kind. In Troy's case, a series of transformations were involved, resulting in a new Forestal. In Covenant's case, the destruction of his mortality freed his spirit to support the Arch of Time (the fact that he retains some form of sentient identity is demonstrated by his ability to speak to Linden during her translation back to her "real" life). In both cases, huge powers were required to cause transformation instead of literal death.

[Emphasis mine]

Covenant's Apotheosis really was an action where he, to a certain (and very real) extent, takes *direct* charge of "his dream"!

So I suspect Finn's ideas are actually quite near the mark.

Covenant's power is the White Magic, which underlies Earthpower, so he should be better than the Elohim!

And it is about time in this series that TC became emancipated and becomes genuinely powerful in "his dream".

And as these books are principally about TC, he surely can't remain being way less adept than Linden!

On the other hand, with three books to go - he has got to have personal (and familial!!!!) issues to conflict and confound him, and disable his self-realization a bit longer.

And then there is always that pesky Despiser ...

I was *REALLY* surprised to see Covenant just ride in like that. But I am glad. Perhaps a messy resurrection sequence has been avoided.

Nevertheless, I am guessing that TC would subconsciously *chose* to be an earthy solid human being, than a whispy Elohim. And I remember him not being a great fan of them!

Perhaps, in the end, TC takes direct control of the dream itself, and not just his role in it, and therefore saves the world permanently from Despite.

That would make sense to me.

And this new series has to be *substantially different* from both the previous two, just as 2C was *substantiallly different* from 1C. Perhaps TC's emancipation is part of that!

A few people have expressed some disappointment with "Runes". Perhaps this is because this sequence has yet to *manifest* as being *enough different* yet. That's probably all about to change ....

As for me, the new series has expressed *substantial differences* already - Roger, Joan, Jeremiah in the Land; Jeremiah threatened, another White Gold ring; Foul up close and personal; the Falls, time-travelling adventure; Esmer (not to mention the unities between 1C and 2C being re-established) - and I am already thrilled and excited and very confident that it is just going to get better and better and better, and be the best yet !!!

Maybe thats why the Demondin stoped their attack on Linden and the rest? Remember Anele became possed by fire and went to talk to them, and then they stopped their attack.
Then they traveled to where Covenants body was buried and re-annimated him, possibly thinking to use him as a figurehead in their attack against Revelstone, but something else happened? Maybe Covenant being what he is (Avatar of the Arch?) could re-inhabit his body.
I know it's a stretch, but I think there is a reason that the Demondin are brought from the past.

Hmmm, the Demondim, resurrected the dead during the skirmish with the Haruchai, then left and come back with tha dead (TC) resurrected...makes some sort of sense. The Demondim could only resurrect those they had killed, does Lord Foul count as Demondim, at least in a family sense.

This could work.

finn wrote: So it is possible that Covenant is able to be released or releases himself from the Arch and takes a corporeal form sustained by Earthpower. Is this not even similar to the properties of Elohim?

Well maybe, maybe not we'll have to wait and see, the good thing about a board such as this is the ability to speculate and let the mind wander through a remarkable creation, the Land. So in the spirit of the board I'll assume that your "NOs" are also only opinion.

The concept of Covenant releasing himself from the Arch to take a corporeal form is an intriguing one. Would it need to be sustained by Earthpower though? Part of me says yes, part of me tends to think that the wild magic - used properly - would suffice. Perhaps it's Linden that infuses the wild magic and Earthpower together to make him corporeal. (By the time Fatal Revanant comes out, I'm going to forget which are my ideas, and which are the ideas of others on this board!)

And yes, my "NOs" are, of course, an opinion. But a strongly felt one, because to me it just doesn't fit into Donaldson's "universe".

Nuff said Burg...........................

Now check this out - aint the final chapter of WGW called "Apotheosis" - which means *BECOMING A GOD*!!!! [I don't have any TC books on me]

did you say "apotheosis"? man, that opens up all kinds of possibilities in my head . . . little GAP humor . . . sorry . . .

Oh, wait. Part II is entitled Apotheosis. Silly me. Here are relevant quotes with the word apotheosis in it.

Beneath his ire, he was so poignant with ruin, so extreme in the ancient and undiminished apotheosis of his despair, that she would have wept for him if she had been able.

This is actually referring to Kevin, so is likely the traditional English definition of apotheosis, which is "the highest point in the development of something; a culmination or climax".

But she could not approach him. He met her appeal with the indefeasible Don't touch me of leprosy or ascension, apotheosis. His refusal made grief well up in her like the wail of a lost child.

This one is more difficult to read. Is this calling upon the actual Greek root of the word, apotheoun, or has Covenant merely reached the highest point in his development of being the wild magic.

When she understood what was happening, Linden poured herself into the apotheosis. Wild magic supplied the power, but that was not enough. Vain and Findail needed more from her.

This refers to the creation of the Staff of Law.

If the second quote is actually referring to TC "becoming a god", then perhaps that's why the Creator is absent.

On the one hand, it seems to me that we have to take into account, and take seriously, the warning that Linden received (presumably from TC): "Be wary of me. Remember that I'm dead" (quoting from memory here). Which echoes the warning that the Stonedowners and the Ramen received from the Elohim: "Beware the halfhand." (Of course, there are any number of other halfhands, besides TC, who may be in view with that warning: Berek himself, the Humbled of the Haruchai, Jeremiah.)

On the other hand, since TC is the white gold (wild magic), which is not bound by the Law of Time -- and since he has become a keystone/protector of the Arch of Time -- would he not have the ability to enter any particular point in time, similar to the way that Linden and company travel through the caesures?

As far as his corporeal existence, perhaps that could be the work of Jeremiah, who excells in building things. But, as in the first two chronicles, both the Creator and Lord Foul are taking their chances with someone from outside the Land, whose choices, decisions and actions may work for good or ill. Lord Foul has indicated that he may use Jeremiah in his service, if he doesn't just kill him in Linden's presence. But Foul's intentions may not work to his advantage. . . .

Just a thought, but aren't TC and Jeremiah missing a different two fingers? Between the two of them, then, don't we end up with a whole hand? Maybe Jeremiah will be able to complete what is yet lacking in TC

I have a more simplistic understanding of why it's possible for TC to return - I believe he & Foul are one and the same. I know this point has been debated elsewhere extensively, but his return backs up my thinking.

At the end of the first chronicles, TC has extinguished Foul and is in pretty bad shape himself - almost dead - the creator (Earthpower link?) restores him, and lo & behold Foul also recovers. OK the timescales may be different, but that can probably be explained somehow, especially as now, time almost seems irrelevant in linear plot development.
At the end of WGW, Foul obliterates himself by directing all of the power of the ring at TC, and TC is transfigured in the process - now why would such an onslaught defeat Foul if it wasn't somehow directed at himself. So following my logic, Foul somehow recovers - if he recovers, TC must too.

Possible to find flaws in my logic I accept, but I think the overriding principles are sound.

On the other hand, if Foul & TC are the same, the final conflict at the end of WGW could have separated them also.

I just don't think that either TC or Foul can be killed unless they both go at once.

Where does the creator fit in all this, I think he just might be Earthpower itself, rather than a sentient bing - after all we never discover that he is anything else do we?

And what about when Kevin reduced Foul with the Ritual of Desicration? TC wasn't around then. Also at the end of WGW Foul is reduced but not TC. He is still around to talk to Linden and help the Giants.
White Gold's power comes from the Weilder so I saw it as Foul just used himself up.
It seems to me that Earthpower was one of the *wonders* of that world. The Creator has told TC that he can't touch the world, while Earthpower has been used through the whole series. Now that's not saying that the Earthpower dosen't some how come from the Creator. He must put some parts of himself into his creations otherwise whats the point?

How about transposing the word "Earthpower" with "the Force" ............................young Skywalker.