Could TC come truly back...

[Glaive]

...if he was summoned to the Land between the first two chronicles?

There was a lot at the beginning of 'The Wounded Land' that took a LARGE pinch of salt to accept, and for most of the trilogy, he seemed totally resigned to his fate or was unconscious, or suddenly knew precicely what to do at a given moment....I know SDR said he envisaged both 2nd and 3rd chronicles at once. Just an idea.

...and what with TIME and the Ceasure's (seizure's, gettit?) playing with the Land's temporal reality, anything can happen...

Maybe, in TC's chronology, the 'chronicles' happened 1,3,2...as opposed to our 1, 2, 3...

Maybe I just need to read the 2 Chronicles again, to find the flaws in my suggestion. ..

Maybe you guys can help me out...

Maybe I'm talking out of my arse...

Maybe...

[Kymbierlee]

Hey, with the caesures, who knows? It looks like he is back though, and am I glad....

[Funky Staff of Law]

I can't see this being the reason for his return.

Time travel, being the tricky devil it is, needs to be very well handled and I'm not sure if SRD is going to keep hold of the ball on this one.

I imagine Covenant's return has something to do with Joan and Roger's arrival in the Land - maybe the presence of a different white gold ring or something.

[Old Darth]

And the question of whether or not this is the REAL Thomas Convenant has yet to be answered.

[Funky Staff of Law]

Real? In what way? Real as in the TC we followed through the first two chronicles? Real as in a TC which has some explanation for how he escaped the Arch? Real as in a TC from a previous time period?

I think it is Covenant, mainly because the second book is called Fatal Revenant, but also because it is the Chronicles of TC.

[ur-bane]

Real? In what way? Real as in the TC we followed through the first two chronicles? Real as in a TC which has some explanation for how he escaped the Arch? Real as in a TC from a previous time period?

I think it is Covenant, mainly because the second book is called Fatal Revenant, but also because it is the Chronicles of TC.

You bring up some interesting points, Funky.
For lack of a better term at the moment, I'll tackle the "Real as in a TC which has some explanation for how he escaped the Arch? " question first.

I have seen a few references lately in several threads to Covenant "escaping" the Arch.
I think there might be something going on here that I missed.
If I remember correcly, in WGW, Covenant placed himself between Foul and the Arch. He absorbed Foul's blast of wild magic into himself so that it could not reach the Arch. He did not actually become, or get "trapped in" the Arch.

"Real as in a TC from a previous time period?" and "Real as in the TC we followed through the first two chronicles?" are similar enough to group together.
The TC we followed could be brought forth into the present at a time when he was "catatonic" if you will. This was mentioned in a previous post (By burgs66, I believe), and I fully subscribe to that idea. IF Covenant has indeed been brought forward in time, it would have to be from an instance when he was not able to function during the time from which he was brought.
By "The TC from a previous time period," I am assuming you mean before his first visit to the Land.
If that is the case, IMO, that destroys the validity of the first 2 chronicles.

I still have a hard time putting the pieces together to determine exactly how/when/where this Covenant originates. But SRD will surely let us know.

And I am not fully convinced that Fatal Revenant refers to Covenant.
If for no other reason than the adjective "Fatal". I would hate to think of Covenant in that context.
The way in which time is being manipulated suggests any number of "Revenants". Linden's father.....Elena.......Kastenessen......

And, the way we have been teased about Kastenessen in RotE I would not doubt at all if Kastenessen was our Fatal Revenant, come back to exact his revenge on the entire Earth for what he was forced to do by his fellow Elohim.

[Funky Staff of Law]

^ I agree that the Fatal Revenant need not be Covenant, it just fits with the fact that he is allegedly there at the end of runes and that I expect to get him back at some stage in these chronicles.

As for the Arch of time - I had understood, and its been a while since I revisited WGW, that Covenant was consumed by the white fire and became PART of the arch. I thought he was actually in it now and that was why white gold could never be able to shatter it... Of course that ties in with Fatal Revenant because if Covenant has been removed from the Arch then it could have fatal consequences. Of course the same could be said for Kastenssen, although did he really die when he sealed the earth?

[ur-bane]

I will have to peruse through my copy of WGW to find the reference, but I seem to remember Covenant between Foul and the Arch.

As far as Kastenessen dying, I can't tell you for sure. All I have to go on is that Findail said that he was "lost to life and love and name." Does that mean he actually died? I don't know for sure, but I would tend to believe that for all intents and purposes his physical "body" (if that's what you can say an Elohim possesses) was "dead." His essence, strength, power was caught in the Durance (that's assuming that the Durance is Kastenessen's Colossus), but his life was lost.
But that's just my interpretation.

[burgs]

...if he was summoned to the Land between the first two chronicles? Maybe...

Until Revenant is published, we'll never know, but I don't believe that TC has ever been to the land for any other times than we are aware. SRD would consider that cheating his reader. He has too much integrity for that.

[Funky Staff of Law]

I will have to peruse through my copy of WGW to find the reference, but I seem to remember Covenant between Foul and the Arch.

I think you're right. He says Foul 'can't' get past him but interestingly he also says that Foul could have won if he hadn;t tried to use white magic. As Covenant was dead by that point (describes himself as a revenant) Foul could have simply unsummoned him if he had the brains.

[Jerico]

Well the way I took it at the end of WGW TC became like Hile Troy. Only he is like a forestal for the Arch of time. He says "I'm like the dead" to Linden. So I took that to mean he is not dead in the Land.
Also that is why the law of life was broken so that he was able to act on what Foul was attempting. Foul just cleansed the venom from TC by attacking him, and set off the change.
SRD can take this any direction he wants, he left himself various outs to be able to bring back TC in the flesh from the current time line.

[burgs]

How do you see SRD bringing him back to life with a corporeal form? That's the part I have some difficulty with.

I understand the "like the dead" comment, but he became an avatar, if you will, of wild magic.

Hmm...I suppose that might hold the answer. Wild magic is fairly capable of anything. We've seen Covenant blow Foul away, we've seen him use it to superimpose himself between Foul and the Arch of Time, we've seen him shave with it, we've seen Linden heal with it...and many other things. We know that wild magic is a law unto itself. Perhaps it alone, or it with junction with the Staff of Law, could accomplish bringing TC back in a corporeal form.

[Jerico]

Really a stretch to come up with the How? It took the death of the last Forestal to bring back Hollin and Anele, but it also changed Sunder in the process?
If at the end of TROTE it is TC brought back to life and riding up to Revelstone then we know it isn't something that Linden did, I suspect that Foul did it somehow. I mean the way things ended with WGW even if Foul got the ring from Linden he couldn't get through TC to break the Arch.
Foul would want TC out of the way, or brought back to 'life'.
He might have even had Joan do it, and then TC freed Jerimiah?
SRD has so many ways to go with this, but he has said that TC has something else to learn. So in some way (other than time travel) I think that statement means he will really be back. I mean SRD has flat said that he didn't die in the Land. So the only thing that has to be done is to bring him back from being the Avatar of the Arch.

[I'm Murrin]

The power expressed with the death of a Forestal was required to break the Law of Life - it took that much power to restore Hollian, Anele, and Sunder because the Law was in the way. Now that it is broken far less power should be needed, but we don't know exactly how a restoration could be brought about.
I don't understand yet how Covenant could have been able to manifest in mortal form - it could be related to his status in the Land; he was recognised by Glimmermere before he died, suggesting that he is a part of the Land as permanent as the mountains, which could mean that he could never truly die - but there could just as easily be a better explanation.

[Edge]

I don't see his being in corporeal form as such a stretch - TC's dead appeared to him in *apparently* corporeal form, even though he couldn't touch them.

It could be quite interesting if his first words in 'Fatal Revenant' are, "Don't touch me".

[finn]

So define corporeal form.

Esmer is corporeal enough to give Stave a good seeing to, but uncorporeal enough to be able to slip and slide around as the Elohim do.

The Raynhyn are corporeal enough to be ridden but come and go too fast to be corporeal travelling to a summons (despite the opinion of the Ramen concerning this, I think they must arrive to summons through some means similar to Esmer/Elohim, anticipating a need in advance and then galloping for 20 days to arrive in time seems harder and less plausible...there are no sightings of Raynhyn being seen "on their way" to a summons that is yet to be signalled) If time is not fixed then space has to be suspect.

Nom was summoned and arrived in Chronicles 2 way outside the dynamics of Applied Physics.....see above.

The line between substancial and un-substantial is fuzzy at least and the ability to manifest physically and/or then become spirit-like appears to be an ability of power, will and law (intact and broken). At least it seems to be when related to movement through space and time.

Covenant back in the flesh? why not!

Perhaps he is now Elohim? maybe the mind tampering they did included a "be an Elohim manual should you succeed in becoming the arch of time" Crazy? Doesn't the arch of time occupy a similar role to that of the Collossus and Durance?

[I'm Murrin]

The Ranyhyn do run the whole way - that's why Mhoram's Ranyhyn was in such bad shape when it arrived in tPtP - it had been travelling through the Westron Mountains for weeks.

[burgs]

So define corporeal form.

“Of or relating to a person's body, especially as opposed to their spirit: he was frank about his corporeal appetites.”

Esmer is corporeal enough to give Stave a good seeing to, but uncorporeal enough to be able to slip and slide around as the Elohim do.

That’s not incongruous with anything we know about the Elohim. They’re not ghosts, or intangible beings. Remember, Findail was corporeal enough to grasp Vain.

The Raynhyn are corporeal enough to be ridden but come and go too fast to be corporeal travelling to a summons (despite the opinion of the Ramen concerning this, I think they must arrive to summons through some means similar to Esmer/Elohim, anticipating a need in advance and then galloping for 20 days to arrive in time seems harder and less plausible...there are no sightings of Raynhyn being seen "on their way" to a summons that is yet to be signalled) If time is not fixed then space has to be suspect.

There’s nothing in the text to support this. As SRD has said, he’s an efficient writer. If the Ramen have an “opinion” about the Ranyhyn, it’s most likely correct.

Nom was summoned and arrived in Chronicles 2 way outside the dynamics of Applied Physics.....see above.

This is a work of “magic”. The laws of physics don’t entirely apply.

The line between substancial and un-substantial is fuzzy at least and the ability to manifest physically and/or then become spirit-like appears to be an ability of power, will and law (intact and broken). At least it seems to be when related to movement through space and time.

Not yet, I don’t think.

Covenant back in the flesh? why not![/quoute]

Sure, but not by any of the means discussed above. I think that’s a surprise that SRD has in store for us.

Perhaps he is now Elohim?

No. The Elohim are Earthpower incarnate. Covenant is the “white wild magic gold”. They are two separate and wholly unique powers.

Doesn't the arch of time occupy a similar role to that of the Collossus and Durance?

No. The Colossus was “infused” by an Appointed to protect the destruction of the One Forest. The Durance, again, was held together by an Appointed.

[Edge]

The Ranyhyn do run the whole way - that's why Mhoram's Ranyhyn was in such bad shape when it arrived in tPtP - it had been travelling through the Westron Mountains for weeks.

Absolutely. SRD says so quite specifically:

The Ranyhyn do not spurn distance... They spurn time. They do not merely respond when they are summoned. Rather they hear that they will be summoned, and they respond. If the distance is great, and the obstacles also, the Ranyhyn will depart moons or seasons before they are summoned, that they may arrive when they are needed.

[Iryssa]

If only my horse could learn that trick
Or even to come at my whistle *grumbles about having to tramp through the bloody snow to get her*