Will today's religions last?

[Avatar]

What I'm saying is that the religions that have stood the test of ages generally reflect human life or at least a large aspect of it, and the question of what it means to be human.

Or at least provide workable guidelines for the preservation and propogation of any given culture?

Sure. But as those guidelines become self-evident, and are accepted without needing to have been passed down, "from on high", shouldn't the method of passing them on become less and less relevant? (I'm not saying it is becoming so, only that it should.)

As Murrin suggests though, a large part of it probably springs from people's desperate need to believe that there is some sort of purpose to it all. To accept that it could be completely random and reasonless may be to see yourself as totally insignificant in the context of the rest of the universe. The human ego isn't keen on the thought.

Perhaps socialist Karl said it best when he said that religion is the opiate of the masses.

Of course Dennis could be right too, but if that was the case, I expect a little more consistency from god. You don't just give a message out, and then hope that it holds true over two thousand years. You reinforce it, you make sure that it is passed on correctly.

Naturally, it could be argued that it is deliberate, that it is meant to make people have faith, but if people have to have faith, as opposed to knowledge, does it suggest that god somehow needs our faith? That he lives on it? If so, then its understandable that he won't prove his existence, because you can't have faith in something that you know is true. If you know, faith is unnecessary.

--Avatar

[I'm Murrin]

and you may allow that God is real, so religion will continue to exist?

Sorry, but I don't believe I'm even capable of making that allowance. I know a lot of people won't like this, but to me, the whole thing is just too ridiculous to be believed.

[dennisrwood]

well glad your open minded.

Avatar: maybe this is all some sort of Skinner Box?

[Avatar]

Run by who? And which of us are the subjects and which the experiementers?

Or are we all equally interchangeable depending on the circumstances?

Personally, I think I like that last scenario. The watchers watched, and all that.

--Avatar

[I'm Murrin]

well glad your open minded.

There's 'open-minded', and then there's 'open-minded'. I only say I'm unwilling to believe in a supreme being that created everything, and honestly, it is rather far-fetched (not that there isn't reason for some to believe; it could explain a lot, really - I just think the likelihood of it being true is too small to put much stock in it). I am willing to accept it as one theory among many.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Avatar Said "To accept that it could be completely random and reasonless may be to see yourself as totally insignificant in the context of the rest of the universe. The human ego isn't keen on the thought. "
That's kind of funny, because now that I see myself as randomly and without reason existing, I feel way more significant. It's amazing that random factors could create the person that I am, and I'm a damn lucky person to get created, if I may say so myself
Avatar Also Said: "Or at least provide workable guidelines for the preservation and propogation of any given culture?

Sure. But as those guidelines become self-evident, and are accepted without needing to have been passed down, "from on high", shouldn't the method of passing them on become less and less relevant? (I'm not saying it is becoming so, only that it should.) "

I think that has to do with reasons. As long as the reasons to do good things that will make society work is because God said so, I don't think they'll ever be self evident. How could they be? They're only true because God said so, and unless what God says becomes more evident than when someone teaches it to you as a child, it'll never be any more obvious than it ever has been. If the reasons for behaving in such a way were placed upon a foundation of function, I think it would become self evident. Someone could put any question to the Maxim test, ie "If everyone did what I was about to do, would it be a positive thing, or a negative thing".
That's the kind of thinking that makes goodness self evident.

[ChoChiyo]

It's amazing to me to think of some of the things religion either is or has been used as. Avatar brought up the idea of religion as "the opiate of the masses." Kind of a spiritual Zoloft?

I've heard it described as a "crutch"--something that props you up when you can't get along on your own.

I've SEEN it used as a weapon--and as a whip--to instill fear and terror for the purpose of exerting control.

I've seen it used as a garbage disposal, used to dispose of "abominations" with the "blessing" of God. The abominations change depending on who is out of favor at the moment--could be gay people. Could be divorced people. Could be unmarried people (especially women) who are *gasp* not virgins. Could be "harlots." Could be black people (whom I've heard labeled "the children of Cain, marked for servitude and misery." Could be long-haired hippy people with tattooes. Could be people with facial piercings. Well, you get the idea.

I've also heard it referred to as Light. C.S. Lewis said, "I believe in Christianity as I believe in the sun--not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything." And of course, Jesus referred to himself as the "Light of the World."

I like to think that a true religion is primarily composed of LIGHT. That it can stand up to the questions and doubts of the people that examine it. That it seeks to illuminate and not to condemn those who do not conform to eternal darkness. I'd like the think that it serves the purpose of making us better people--through growth and education.

Jem has spoken in a couple of places about the importance of personal growth. I believe that this life is a sort of "educational facility"--we're here to learn something. Perhaps we're all here to learn different things. I don't know.

Maybe, as someone Avatar(?) said, we will end in oblivion. I don't think so. But even if I do, I'd still like to be living for a purpose rather than drifting about gratifying whatever desire drifts up to my attention. Even if there is no God and no reward in Heaven or Punishment in Hell, I'd still like to be altruistic and work on improving myself, helping others as best I can, and leaving the world a bit better.

A rather random and scattered post, I realize. But I'm feeling a bit pensive this afternoon....

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I've always thought that if there was a god, and he was testing us, the only way we'd pass is if we did good things as though he wasn't even there Gnight all, goin home from werk. Be back tomorrow.

[drew]

I am a fairly religious Christian, but I have many of my own beleifs.
People in my family (my Mom, and my wife) have told me I should have been a preist, but I dn't beleive in enough of what I have learned to be able to teach it.
The one thing that I don't beleive in ANY forms of religion is the personification of God...no matter what the name.
Through all of history, almost every religion has personified God, with names, personalities, and genders...this is what I think is the flaws of most religions.
How can I beleive this and still call myself a Christian?
Easy, I beleive in the teachings of Jesus. The real teachings. Unfortunatly, the Christian Church has, over the last 2000 years disstorted so many of those teachings to their own ends, that it has turned so many people away from it. I mean the term God-fearing...I don't think the Jesus in the Bible should be feared!
The passage I like the most, the passage that I think sums up Jesus' teachings is, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.."
Think about that...Meek...somewhere in the middle ages, the Christian church forgot about that, and tried to get as much power and money and controll as they could, was this a flaw in religion? I think rather it was a flaw in Human Nature.

Anyway, case in point: Yes religion (at least Christianity) apears to have changed drastically since it's incarnation, but I think in the last 50 years or so, it may have stated changeing for the better, with the outcropping of new faiths that have broken from the larger Churches, this gives people more options than just blind faith and obeidience.
-gotta go now, I have to take the kids to Sunday School.

[dennisrwood]

or the many, many churches just dilute the message?

[Iryssa]

I think, as the combination of Dennis and Drew's posts have displayed, that the multiple-denomination thing is, indeed, both a blessing and a curse. I'm glad that I have more options, glad that I can be a devoted Christian and not be a Catholic. On the same token, I've found that many denominations have lost the reverence for God I've found to be present in a Catholic Mass...which is why I've just started calling myself an Anglican But seriously, it means we have to be thinking Christians, which is not a bad thing...it's just too bad people don't exercise their brains sometimes, and simply fall into whatever the "latest and greatest" revival leaders etc. are preaching, without even thinking about it...*shakes head* but I digress...

To bring this back on topic...I would like to point out that, while Christianity is a mere 2000 years old, it stems from Judaism (which is still around, if also changed, as all things must do), which is much much MUCH older....just some food for thought...

[Avatar]

Iryssa-- And there are even older gods than those.

...I'd still like to be living for a purpose rather than drifting about gratifying whatever desire drifts up to my attention. Even if there is no God and no reward in Heaven or Punishment in Hell, I'd still like to be altruistic and work on improving myself, helping others as best I can, and leaving the world a bit better...

Exactly. The purpose lies in the way that you define it for yourself. We are free to decide on it for ourselves. We do not have to accept it simply as passed down. In fact, we may have the responsibility to decide it for ourselves, and live as accordingly as we can.

Purpose is what we make it. Nothing else.

--Avatar

[drew]

Purpose is what we make it. Nothing else.

Unfortunatly, too many people in the world, make it their purpose to shove their beliefs down every one elses throats, and don't want to stop until everyone agrees with them.
I don't just mean on a large scale either.
All conflicts, and I mean ALL conflicts arise from one person trying to prove themselves right. Wether it's something as small as not letting your kids stay up late, or a near Civil War breaking out over a crooked election (The Ukrane).
The unfortunate thing, is that so many people have these conflicts over religion, and this makes it hard, espescially now-a-days, for religions to be taken seriously.
People concintrate too much on the bad things that most religions have done, and don't listen to the true teachings.
If we were to actually listen to what most modern religions started out teaching when they were formed, instead of what the modern world has twisted them into, and if we were to follow those teachings, wow much nicer would the world be to live in?
Quite a bit I'd assume. But in this modern world Instant Access, and Now, Now, Now, and Bigger, Bigger, Bigger, and "I want it all, I want more than the next guy, and who cares who or what gets damaged in the process", we're not about to let ourselves get caught up with learning the true meanings behind teachings like:
Compassion.
Love.
and Forgiveness.
So my answer to the question, "will todays religions last?". Well they are trying, but we as a society are sure giving them a hard time.


I don't want people to be offending by my posting. I know that there is still Love, and compassion, and even a little bit of Forgivness left in this world.

[Avatar]

..But in this modern world Instant Access, and Now, Now, Now, and Bigger, Bigger, Bigger, and "I want it all, I want more than the next guy, and who cares who or what gets damaged in the process", we're not about to let ourselves get caught up with learning the true meanings behind teachings like:
Compassion.
Love.
and Forgiveness.

Very true. It often seems to me that the more we advance materially, the more we seem to slow, or even reverse, our "spiritual" (for want of a better word) advancement.

--Avatar

[dennisrwood]

where we lived there was a run down trailer, two kids running around in dirty underoos. but a satellite
dish and a fully decked brand new pick up. argh!

[Avatar]

It's the same story everywhere.

I wonder how much of it is down to a perception created by the media/whatever as to what is important?

Sometimes I think that Humanities priorities are just screwed up.

--Avatar

[dennisrwood]

maybe because people acan only see the bling? it is instant and gratifying. makes us better than those who have no bling. argggh!

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I don't think it HAS to be like that, though. I don't think that materialism and spirituality actually need to collide as much as we think they do. Definately, if you make materialism the focus of your life, all other things will be less important. After all, there are only so many minutes in a day, and our attention spans are only so long.
However, I've been into 'stuff' my whole life, video games and gadgets and computers and what not... and I'm a pretty far sight more spiritually and philosophically inclined than most of the people around me. I don't think it's the materialism... I think it has something to do with values, or priorities like Avatar said.
Let's say I have a great car. The car is top notch, reliable, attractive, pleasant to drive and pleasant to be in. It's got a great system for me to listen to my music in, it's got lots of room and safety features. These are all things I could derive pleasure from, and not in a negative way. I enjoy good music, a pleasant ride is less chaotic, I could be more relaxed and acheive a state closer to serenity in my everyday life, I can be secure in my physical safety.

However, that same car could be looked at as a status symbol. I could think that having the car makes me better than others. I could look at the car as my ticket to gratuitus sex with random, nameless people. In this way, it could be negative and anti-spiritual.

I just think it's how you look at the possessions, not the possessions themselves.

[Avatar]

As I always say: It's ALL a matter of perspective.

--A

[dennisrwood]

forced perspective. we allow a select few to dtermine what in good in this society.