Kevin's Watch

If there's one thing I've learned it's that hate -- the choices made from fear -- are easier, safer, and more likely to screw the situation up than anything else.

The choices made towards something you want -- choices made from love -- are far harder, more daring, and more likely to make good things happen.

For a while now, I've thought this about hate: To hate something, you really have to give a damn about it. You can't passively hate something. That places love and hate sort of on the same spectrum of IMPACT or caring, or however you want to say it. If you look at it that way, generally if you can work through your hatred of something, you come away with something new, and powerful.

M-D wrote:The state of our world is proof that love doesn't conquer all ... and that's just sad.

Love is infinitely more powerful, the problem is that too many people are afraid to love.

Children Learn
What They Live


If a child lives with criticism .....
he learns to condemn.
If a child lives with hostility .....
he learns to fight.
If a child lives with ridicule .....
he learns to feel shy.
If a child lives with shame .....
he learns to feel guilty.
If a child lives with tolerance .....
he learns patience.
If a child lives with encouragement .....
he learns confidence.
If a child lives with praise .....
he learns to appreciate.
If a child lives with fairness .....
he learns justice.
If a child lives with security .....
he learns to have faith.
If a child lives with approval .....
he learns to like himself.
If a child lives with acceptance and friendship .....
he learns to find love in the world.

by Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.


Teach them to love.

Great post SoulQuest. And M-D too.

I don't think that hate per se is genetic. Those instincts, they are. But it is our very humanity that has twisted them into "hate".

--A

Hate is a defense mechanism designed to protect the community (hating what is different) and help us achieve our goals (hating what opposes our desires). Unfortunately, some people take this instinct a little too far.

Every emotion has a role in evolution. That neither justifies nor invalidates the emotion; however, it does help us to understand it.

I certainly agree that emotions have a root in our evolutionary past, but as you say, it is an instinct that gets taken too far which makes it hate.

I doubt that the lion hates anything that impedes his desires. Opposes, acts agreesively toward, but hate is such a refinement of that instinct that I think it is purely human. Hmm, wonder about primates though. Do you think those can "hate"?

--A

Avatar wrote:Hmm, wonder about primates though. Do you think those can "hate"?

Good point. I'm sure some of their behaviour indicates a large array of emotions (as we know them), but how can we really know without the benefit of a common mode of communication? It's a shame really ... I'd bet primates could teach us a great deal about ourselves, provided we were willing to listen and understand - which is highly unlikely, given our Human arrogance.

Personally, I think that it's the poetry and rationalization that we attribute to what are basic, primal, monkey-fears that create "hate".

Interesting take Plissken. Would you elaborate a little?

--A

Well, it's as I've said before. Most hate falls into one of two catagories:

- I don't know him, but he might take something away from me/hurt me.

- I do know him, and he has shown that he will take something away from me/hurt me.

These are basic, primal monkey fears, which we dress up with the various guises of hate.

While love is often described under these terms, true love (as opposed to hormonal urgings) is the antithesis of this, and is a higher function:

- I will give you something of mine, and risk pain, because it is in your best interest.

(ie- "Greater love has no man than this - That he lay down his life for his friends.")

Hate then becomes the primal agression response to invasion of territory combined with the capacity and luxury to wait and plan.

My parents once owned a cat and two dogs. The cat demanded complete control of all she surveyed. The older dog understood this and obeyed the cat implicitely. The younger dog believed, to her dying day, that the cat loved her and was her friend. The cat hated the younger dog. If you watched the two of them together, there was no question of the cat's feelings. Everyone knew it, except the dog who forgot her own name and had to be retaught three times. (sweet dog, head like cement)

Animals in the wild do not have the time to develop hate. Survival moves too quickly. Hate requires a delay of the agression. Our minds move faster than an animals and are more complex. We can develope hate in a much shorter period of time, with more subtlety and covering a wider range of subjects, but the instinct is the same. Hate is defensive agression coupled with boredom.

Khaliban wrote:Hate then becomes the primal agression response to invasion of territory combined with the capacity and luxury to wait and plan...Hate is defensive agression coupled with boredom.

I really like that. You should be spending more time here in the Close. (And while you're at it, the Think-Tank can always do with some new views )

In fact, I'm not sure that I have anything to add.

--Avatar

If I may be so bold as to add another opinion.

I have read and re-read this thread, and there are some very intriguing thoughts on "hate."
But most of what I am reading falls under the category of "resentment."

From my point of view, hate is resentment coupled with irrational behavior and personal justification for your actions.
Resentment to the point that one feels he/she must act based on that resentment.
Drew's driving example is a perfect illustration of my point. You don't hate that you got cut off, you resent the fact that someone had the audacity to take your spot in the line of traffic, or delay you for a moment from your course.
You resent it because you feel it was a personal affront. When in all actuality, if it was not you, it would have been somebody else.
Most of use would fume for a minute, and continue on our way.
Hate demands action. Resentment does not. And, based on plissken's definitions, where is the fear? Even if you add fear to the equation, the above scenario does not involve hate.

I don't agree with Khaliban's take on hate as a defense mechanism, either. It does not take hate to be defensive.
Hate deals with specifics. Defensiveness does not. Defensive behavior is nothing more than fear or anxiety or self-preservation. But it takes more than fear to drive a person to hateful acts.

Let's take territorial defense since it is an example already mentioned. A tribe that kills those who invade their territory is simply defending that territory. That is survival, self-preservation, and resentment that someone dared step over their boundary It is not hate. But if that same tribe then went out and started killing other tribes to try to guarantee no further intrusions, then it becomes hate. They added irrational action to their fear and resentment, and it became hate.
Hate also believes itself right. The tribe feels that their actions are justified, that they have done nothing wrong. Yet most observers would be appalled at what they had witnessed.

"Hate" is a term used much too loosely, IMO. "Resentment" is a term better suited for most situations described as "hate."

Another opinion is always welcomed, Ur-Bane, no need to ever worry about that.

And I certainly agree with you that "hate" is far too loosely used.

I think though, (and I haven't re-read the thread, so I could be wrong) that Khaliban meant that agression was the defence mechanism, and that it is the "boredom" that allows it to become hate.

Hate. What is it anyway? We're trying to explain why we hate, but we haven't gotten around to deciding exactly what it is. Even terms like "loathing" don't really equate. I think that Ur-Banes description of it as something requiring action is pretty close, and on the whole, when people say hate, they usually mean strong, deep dislike.

Is hate something that drives you to action? The dictionary defines it as:

To feel hostility or animosity toward.
To detest.
To feel dislike or distaste for

Which really are only variations of dislike. When does it cross the line to hatred? Actually, the dictionary definition seems inadequate, doesn't it?

--Avatar

At dictionary.com, there are several definitions of "hate" that are exactly what you posted, Avatar. But one source goes further"

dictionary.com wrote:hate

n : the emotion of hate; a feeling of dislike so strong that it demands action [syn: hatred] [ant: love] v : dislike intensely; feel antipathy or aversion towards; "I hate Mexican food"; "She detests politicians" [syn: detest] [ant: love]


Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

Those are the terms which I apply to "hate". I think that it is the action associated with the resentment and/or dislike that crosses over and makes it "hate." so strong that it demands action.

It is entirely possible that your representation of Khaliban's words is correct. Here they are:

Khaliban wrote:We hate for two reasons. Everything described here is a subtle variation or combination of these two. We hate what is different or unfamiliar, and we hate what opposes our desire.

and

Khaliban wrote:Hate is a defense mechanism designed to protect the community (hating what is different) and help us achieve our goals (hating what opposes our desires). Unfortunately, some people take this instinct a little too far.

Every emotion has a role in evolution. That neither justifies nor invalidates the emotion; however, it does help us to understand it.

and

Khaliban wrote:Hate then becomes the primal agression response to invasion of territory combined with the capacity and luxury to wait and plan....
Hate is defensive agression coupled with boredom.

So, it does appear that you are correct in your assertion. Notice that aggression is an active term. I can see where the boredom fits as well. Although hate is reactionary, it requires time to develop.

So perhaps we can sum up our definition of "hate" as:

A strong, aggressive, reactionary feeling born of dislike, fear, and resentment , requiring action and irrational self-justification.

It is true that until we agree on a definition for "hate" itself, that we cannot answer the question of why?

Excellent post Ur-Bane. And a damn good definition to be going forward with.

I especially like the part about "irrational justification." And I would say that "hatred" is irrational, except that I suppose it's not always.

--Avatar

I think that hate is personal.

Discrimination is horrible and wrong, but I think it rarely stems from hate. As mentioned earlier, fear of the unknown, a total block on a set of persons for various reasons as a way to get ahead in life, and even apathy lead to discrimination.

To me, hate is more virulent. I can think of a person that I hate, and when I think of that person my adrenaline pumps, my face turns red, my teeth grit in a way that a group of people I do not have personal ties with could never make happen.

Perhaps we should define hate. Is it apathy? Turning a blind eye towards something? Or is it a fierce emotion that makes a person act irrationally? Is it cold? Is it something that can be used as a tool in order to get ahead in life. All of the above? Help! I'm confusing myself :p

I think that it can be both a fierce emotion and a cold tool. Apathy isn't strong enough to be hate, it's simply a lack of caring.

Personally, there's nobody I hate. Plenty of folks I dislike, or don't get on with, but nothing that reaches the proportions of hate.

It's a very malleable word.

--Avatar

Metal-Demon wrote:Hate lurks around every turn, in every man and every beast. It knows no boundaries, considers none but itself and left unchecked, it will spare no one. Hate is legion. It is easy for one to hate, because it comes so naturally to us all ... it's so much easier for us weak and fragile creatures to give into hate than to give ourselves to love.

The state of our world is proof that love doesn't conquer all ... and that's just sad.

That doesn't prove that love doesn't conquer all, it just proves it's rare, percentage-wise.

Love transforms. On the way to transformation, love is unconditional. It doesn't fear hate as the description above does.