Why DO we Hate?

[drew]

Okay, just to make Avatar Happy, I'm going to Give the Collective a try.
I don't really like starting arguments, or joining in one's that have already been started-so on that topic I'd like to ask the Question:

Why DO we Hate?

-By 'We' I mean humans of course.

Is it programed into us from our mentors?
Or is it genetic?

Just think of all of the people who have ben discriminatated against since ancient times....
Any reason will do-Birth place---Race---Eye color---birth deffects---beleifs--scocial status--hell even Left handed People were looked down on for the longest time---aren't like 4-out-of-10-people left handed?!?!

Genocide is not a new thing. It's been going on forever. and will unfortuanatly probebly never stop. It's not just a few hate mongers out there getting people going..I'd say there are more fighters in the world than ther are lovers.
Every once in a while a hero walks this Earth with teachings of Love and Compassion (Budah/Jesus/Mohammad..Ghandi/Mother Theressa...et.al.)
But in many cases, people who think that they follow these teachings, have gone on to start Wars agains people who don't!!

So lets here everyone's opions. (I have more, I'm just saving them to post to any replies (If any are posted))

Why DO we Hate?

[Worm of Despite]

Just think of all of the people who have ben discriminatated against since ancient times....
Any reason will do-Birth place---Race---Eye color---birth deffects---beleifs--scocial status--hell even Left handed People were looked down on for the longest time---aren't like 4-out-of-10-people left handed?!?!

I'm not so sure if discrimination files under hate. Perhaps the more overt discrimination, but a great deal of it is very subtle and institutionalized, to the point that the people discriminating have no idea they're doing it. So I think hate might be a little extreme there.

I suppose both hate and discrimination have one thing in common: advantage. To some extent, our hatred of another group gives us an advantage. If you search, you're most likely find that advantage.

A little off topic, but I like waxing about race & ethnicity:

As far as discrimination in the U.S. goes: it gives the Anglo-Saxon core an advantage by creating a "glass ceiling" for the minorities to bump against. All of this maintains white privilege. White privilege is something just about every white partakes upon, whether he or she knows it or not. Another thing: a lot of the power of whiteness derives from its invisibility. Whiteness has become separate from racial or ethnic distinctions; it is just "the human race"--the perceived "normality" against which all others are set.

[Plissken]

Generally, fear leads to hate (Thanks, Yoda!). Sometimes, this fear can be unrational (ie-fear of the unknown), other times, it's fairly reasonable (fear that the guy who burnt your Bible, killed your parents, and raped your sister will be coming for you next!).

Discrimination generally comes from the more unreasonable of the two types of fear.

[lurch]

..Yes, plissken has it. The opposites are, love and fear. Fear generates most other unpleasentries. Some English writer, stage hack, wrote a piece on it back in the late 1600 or 1700s was it. I think he called it The Fellow, or Fear and Loathing in Montebello, or maybe it was Fear The Pillow. Anyway, the guys name was Othello and he looses every thing because he was dissuaded by Fear, as in fear of loss manifests as jelousey(spl) The point is , fear not wherever I ago and fear aplenty wherever you go, because everbody knows those are the worst cars ever made..MEL

[Avatar]

Drew! (HAHA my plans are working! )

Good to see you here. Once you get used to it, you'll find out it's fun.

An interesting question. I agree that it's mostly fear. What we don't understand, we fear. And often what we fear, we attempt to destroy.

I also think that Plissken covers it fairly well, but using his distinction, does that mean that some kinds of hate are acceptable? i.e. hating that guy who might be coming after you?

Fear of that sort is more than reasonable, but does that automatically mean "hate"? From Drew's post, though, I get the sense that he's talking about the discriminatory aspects of hate. "Hatred" for people or actions which are alien to one.

And on that one, although I agree that it must arise from fear in some sense, I'm not sure why. Why should people as a group fear people who are left handed, (historically, it was believed that there was something sinister about it, and was linked for some reason to the devil), or people who have a different skin colour?

On the whole, I think that it may be as simple as psychological leftovers. People, as we all know and lament, are all too prone to not putting any effort into their thoughts/feeling/opinions. Too happy to accept what daddy, mommy, preacher or school tells them.

Perhaps part of it is an attempt to preserve that "advantage" that Foul talks about, even perhaps unconciously. And too often it comes about from a lack of understanding, or the assumption that one little detail makes people so diferent from oneself.

I find that people who hate all too often have no experience with the people that they hate.

--Avatar

[drew]

Okay hate may have been a strong word, but discrimination doesn't seem strong enough.

Why did Egyptions travel around the known world capturing and enslaving other races?
Why did people origionally figure out that enslaving Tribal Africans was a good idea?

Why did Europeans blame Jews fopr the Black Plauge--and everything else around that time?

Why did North American settlers try to kill most of the Native Americans?

Why were there Lynch mobs in the US south?

Why did mid20th century German Nationals try to take over eurpe, and Kill all the Jewish people in the process?

Why did the poulation of Rowonda Half almost overnight?

-I could go on, you all know I could go on...Are humans programed to -dislike-people different from ourselves?
Or what the hell is it?

[Avatar]

I think that hate in this context is a perfectly appropriate word to use, for a lot of people at least. All I meant there was that you weren't talking about "hate" as in hating somebody who is trying to kill you, but rather hate that springs from prejudice or discrimination.

As to the why though, it may perhaps be down to selfishness or arrogance. Selfishness in the sense that nobody but you, (not you personally, you know what I mean) is worth anything, or deserving of anything, including fair treatment etc.

Or arrogance in the sense that you and the people (race/culture/whatever) that you represent are simply better than anybody else, worthy of everything, and nobody else is.

I tend to think that it's not "genetic" in the sense of being part of our human make-up, but that it's perhaps socially inculcated.

People raised in "liberal" (for want of a better word) families/societies are not driven to hatred of others, while those in "conservative" (still not nearly strong enough for what I want to convey there) often are.

As for the specific questions you raise, I can mention a couple of possible answers:

Slavery: Arrogance and cheap labour.

Jews: Arrogance and fear. The need for an acceptable scapegoat, one that people could persecute freely, in the fond belief that it would make a difference.

American Indians: Arrogance and selfishness

Lynch Mobs: Arrogance

WWII: Arrogance, selfishness, scapegoats.

Rwanda: Arrogance on the whole, coupled with lack of understanding, ancient tribal emnity coupled with and manipulated by modern political agendas of the ruling elite.

We're not programmed, I think. Rather, it's too easy to do it, and we're selfish. Very, very selfish. And that selfishness is part of the reason.

How easy is it for us to understand that every person we pass in the street, that drives past us, that we see from the top floor as they walk by below, every single entity of the thronging mass of humanity, has a life, cares, fears, loves and ambitions?

Don't know about you, but I'm a border-line solipsist, and for me its very bloody hard. I have to remind myself constantly that its true. If I didn't, it would be all to easy to forget that they, and everybody else, are people too.

And who cares what happens to strangers really? How are our lives affected by the death and suffering of peole who we don't know, will never know, and whose deaths we will never even learn about?

And I think that that sort of thinking is what makes hatred, and even perhaps "evil", so easy.

Wow. That turned out longer than I intended. Anyway, Here Endeth the Lesson.

--Avatar

[Worm of Despite]

Okay hate may have been a strong word, but discrimination doesn't seem strong enough.

Why did Egyptions travel around the known world capturing and enslaving other races?
Why did people origionally figure out that enslaving Tribal Africans was a good idea?

Why did Europeans blame Jews fopr the Black Plauge--and everything else around that time?

Why did North American settlers try to kill most of the Native Americans?

Why were there Lynch mobs in the US south?

Why did mid20th century German Nationals try to take over eurpe, and Kill all the Jewish people in the process?

Why did the poulation of Rowonda Half almost overnight?

-I could go on, you all know I could go on...Are humans programed to -dislike-people different from ourselves?
Or what the hell is it?

Most of these things you describe have very deep-seated social and political issues. The Indians, for example.

Look at them when compared to the first people from Jamestown. Not only do Indians speak a different language, but they also have a completely different world view and a completely different religious view. By world view, I mean the way they treat nature, as opposed to Anglo-Saxons paving it over. By religious view, I mean they don't subscribe to the Anglo-Saxon core in any way (they have their Great Spirit and all).

Not only that, but Indians are easy to identify, thus making it hard to assimilate them into the Anglo-Saxon core. This applies to all people of color. The more identifiable a minority, the more pressure the majority will heap upon them to fit in.

So, couple completely lack of cultural commonality with being easily identified and you have infinite fuel for fire.

Another interesting point: not only was there a total lack of interest and a total lack of communication, but settlers found that most Indians didn't even speak to other Indians, because each tribe/religion had a completely different language.

To top it off, these heathen savages had LAND--resources that the settlers wanted.

It is then very easy to see what this all led to. Was simple hate involved? Of course, but there's so many outside factors it's ridiculous.

We also have to remember that the people who killed the Indians were light-years away from our modern-day conceptions of racism and social norms. A hundred years ago things that we would have deemed blatantly racist (Eugenics and other "sciences" that proved white supremacy) were accepted by not only commoners but the HIGHEST RUNGS of civilization.

When we look at the people who committed these atrocities on the Indians, we're looking from tinted windows. It looks senseless to us now, but that's because you have to understand a completely different world. It asks for some measure of objectivity--a setting aside of quick emotions and personal belief. It's easy not to be rational about past societies, because they often seem as distant to us as any science-fiction setting.

And yes, of course there was hate involved. Not only did we bar Indians from any sort of public office, but we denied them even jobs that involved manual labor. That's perhaps the lowest blow one can give to a minority--that not even their physical labor is prized. That's a damned strong statement. But did we do it purely out of spite? I offer “No”, because the Anglo-Saxon core had something to gain (and maintain) by keeping Indians in a dark corner. This goes for countless atrocities.

[Plissken]

Rednecks cussin' Hippies
Cussin' Yippies
For their hair

Others laugh at straights
Who laugh at freaks
Who laugh at geeks
Who laugh at squares

Some folks hate the whites
Who hate the blacks
Who hate the Klan

Most of us hate anything that we don't understand

'Cause everybody's gotta have
Somebody to look down on
Folks you can do better than
At any time you choose

Someone doing something dirty
We supposed to frown on
If you can't find nobody else
Then help yourself to me

(Help yourself, Bretheren!)

-- Jesus Was a Capricorn, by Kris Kristofferson

[matrixman]

Excellent post from Lord Foul!

Not only did we bar Indians from any sort of public office, but we denied them even jobs that involved manual labor. That's perhaps the lowest blow one can give to a minority--that not even their physical labor is prized.

Man, that's a powerful statement. Stopped me cold. You're right, LF, the ultimate way to humiliate a minority may be to make it feel completely worthless to the new order of society imposed by the "conquerors."

Btw, I don't know how it is in the U.S. but in Canada we're extremely sensitive about how we call the native peoples of the land here. We don't call them "Indians" but rather "First Nations" peoples or "Aboriginal" peoples. Just as we now call the northern peoples of the Arctic the "Inuit" (the name they've given to themselves) rather than "Eskimo" (a name imposed upon them). We use the term "Indian" only for people from, er, India.

[Worm of Despite]

I say "Indian" mostly out of habit, as it's very much the norm here to call Native Americans that. Also: a lot of the "good old boys" down here in the South pronounce Indians like one would pronounce "Engines". So it's basically bastardization of an already-incorrect ethnic label. Heh.

And thanks for the compliment! 99% of what I said was stuff I absorbed yesterday, during my Race & Ethnicities class. I paid attention, yes?

[drew]

An Interesting aside from matrixmans post...
Did you know that Inuits don't have the same aborigional Rights as other native Americans?

There was something in the news lately about Inuit in Nunivat, northern Quebec, and Labrador, asking for a break in the GST--.as they have to pay full taxes unlike other First Nations.--And most goods cost between 2-5 times as much in tose climates due to the expence of shipping.

[Khaliban]

We hate for two reasons. Everything described here is a subtle variation or combination of these two. We hate what is different or unfamiliar, and we hate what opposes our desire.

[Avatar]

Khaliban, nice to see you around.

Great posts all round, I think, and summed up neatly by Khaliban. What is different, and what opposes us.

In terms of that, I wonder if the is an element of genetics in there. Far removed and twisted from its original intent perhaps, but afterall, the will to survive drives us, even when our survival doesn't actually rest on the issue.

That biological imperative knows nothing of culture, society, etc. It knows only that we must get what we want, in the (now erroneous) belief that we want only what we need.

--Avatar

[drew]

That's what I was driving at.
There is a line in an Anthrax song I remember from my youth...
"If we were blind, and had no choice, Would we hate eachother by the sound of our voice?"

[Avatar]

Hmmm. An interesting idea to be sure.

But perhaps what we've said earlier on the topic goes some way toward explaining why we don't overcome that drive in these instances.

We all know it's possible to do so, hell, at a guess, most of us do overcome it, in terms of hate anyway, without ever even thinking about it. So what's with the people who don't?

Unable to overcome "baser" instincts? Less developed emotionally/mentally? I don't know.

I wonder if we're edging back toward Nature Vs Nurture again. Are we really naturally predisposed to what I can only think to call selfishness that, when it gets down to it, manages to over-ride rationality? Are we "trained" by society/whatever to subliminate this desire?

As I write this, I can only think that perhaps the answer is yes. However, it is not this drive that turns it into hate I think. It makes us antagonistic towards what we percieve to oppose us perhaps, but I don't think it turns that into hate. Hatred is our own twist on it. Fed and nurtured often by those who seek gain from it, but not "natural". Not hatred.

Anyone?

--Avatar

[Metal-Demon]

Albeit morally questionable, hate is far more powerful than love.

Hate lurks around every turn, in every man and every beast. It knows no boundaries, considers none but itself and left unchecked, it will spare no one. Hate is legion. It is easy for one to hate, because it comes so naturally to us all ... it's so much easier for us weak and fragile creatures to give into hate than to give ourselves to love.

The state of our world is proof that love doesn't conquer all ... and that's just sad.

Just some thoughts.

[Avatar]

Nice to see you here again too, M-D. Nice post too. Do you have some thoughts on why we hate as well?. Why it's so easy, and why especially, it comes naturally?

Love may not conquer all, hell, you're right, we know for a fact that it doesn't. Not always anyway. Could it though? If we were "good" enough? I like to think so.

Of course, we're not yet. And I'm not sure that we ever will be, but why? What is it about hate that makes it appear ingrained in us?

--Avatar

[drew]

Metal Demon wrote:

Hate lurks around every turn, in every man and every beast.

It's so true..when someone pisses another off-many people go ballistic, like it's natural, but if someone is nice to someone else, most people don't care..

Let me clarify.
You're driving in traffic, some one cutts you off, and then stops to try and make a left hand turn...you get pissed-you might curse, yell, bang your steering wheel, flip him off, or just sit there and brew over it, your in a bad mood for a few minutes, at least; your automatic reation towards this person is hate..maybe mild hate, but hate non-the less.

Now if you're trying to make a left hand turn accross traffic, and someone finnaly stops to let you go, what do you do, give them half of a wave thanks..maybe, right?
It doesn't put you in a good modd. You don't feel like the person who let you turn is a great person. You're probebly still upset at all the people who didn't let you go earlier.

It's tru, it's easier to hate, and dis-like, and discriminate, than it is to love and accept.
Which brings me to my point of this whole thread..is it genitic..?

[Metal-Demon]

The way I see it is that we are, after all, animals ... and we have primal instincts which we utilize everyday in order to survive (most of those instincts are rather subtle, others are very apparent).

I think we can agree that it's been like that since the dawn of man, right?

Well ... hate is painfully demonstrative of power, might, dominance, etc. People stand up and take notice when hatred is present. It grabs your attention and forces you to deal with it. Some people revel in it.

Love, on the other hand, forces and individual to "lay themselves bare", and to reveal a poignant vulverability that (hopefully) we all share ... perhaps the animal within sees that as a sign of weakness?

I fear that society in general more often than not dismisses these fragile moments of love out of hand, because it puts people in a situation where they might have to expose their soft or tender side ... and perhaps face ridicule, shame, and embarrassment as a result.

I mean ... what would a group of average healthy adult males rather watch? A football (UK) riot or a love story? Just consider how the group would react to each situation ... I think that says alot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not without fault. I have to admit that I hate ... I hate a great many things in this world for many different reasons. But when I truly love something or someone - I want the entire planet to know. I guess that's just my way of trying to keep things even for myself.