Pope Benedict XVI

[Avatar]

...For whatever reasons , bullyied by his parents, who knows, he and the church cannot deny that he once belonged to the Hitler Youth. I never belonged to it. He did. No matter what arguement one uses,,the fact cannot be denied. Thats the way it is.

For a start, they don't seem to be even trying to deny it, and second, I think that you'd have to concede that if you had been that age, and lived in Germany at that time, you almost certainly would have been a member of it.

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[dennisrwood]

Dromond: ummm, compulsory, you do know what that means, right? Ratzinger did not volunteer.

www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/t ... 9Feb05.htm

should answer on how the Church has come around on the question of the Jewish faith.

Lurch: the Lurch doth protest too much. you make a link with Ratzinger and the nazi youth he was forced to join.
Lurch says: "For whatever reasons , bullyied by his parents, who knows, he and the church cannot deny that he once belonged to the Hitler Youth."
so we have you in a damned lie here Lurch. history shows that German youth were forced into the nazi youth. you libel the man and claim that you are innocent? sorry, your words prove your true self.
as to your immigrant text? racism from you? I had expected better.

[High Lord Tolkien]

[quote="dennisrwood
so we have you in a damned lie here Lurch. history shows that German youth were forced into the nazi youth. you libel the man and claim that you are innocent? sorry, your words prove your true self.
as to your immigrant text? racism from you? I had expected better.[/quote]


Not *everyone* was forced (a huge number embraced) and Ratzinger not coming clean and talking about is damning in itself.
The losing side always come out with that "It wasn't me" mentality.

I believe that Lurch's comment was not racism but statistics.
Catholic numbers in South America are being converted into Protestant, Evangelical and other Christian sects by the hardlines that Ratzinger esposes.

Oh,well.
In another few weeks the Pope stories will disappear like before.

[Myste]

<sigh> I just wish the Apocalypse would get here fast so I can find out if my college roommate from freshman year was right, and I really am going to hell. The suspense is giving me an ulcer.

[High Lord Tolkien]

<sigh> I just wish the Apocalypse would get here fast so I can find out if my college roommate from freshman year was right, and I really am going to hell. The suspense is giving me an ulcer.

Freshman are never right about anything.
You are going to hell but for an entirely different reason.


(Do I know how to make friends or what?)

[Kinslaughterer]

The only problem is no one in their right mind is going to say they willing joined the Hitler Youth and in retrospect I'm sure Ratz is going to deny any connection to Nazi Germany whatever his true leanings may be. Given that I'm still uncertain as to his motivations.

[Warmark Jay]

Oh, I think our problems are much, much worse...

scifidaily.blogspot.com/2005/04/emperor ... l#comments

[Myste]

Freshman are never right about anything.
You are going to hell but for an entirely different reason.

Yeah, but what was it I did? Because if it was something stupid, I'll apologize and we can all move on. On the other hand, if it's something fun, I might as well do it again since I'm damned anyway.

[lurch]

Dwood..once again, you have proven my point for me. The only lie is one of your making by not understanding my point or humor. How is it that Roman Catholic always take , observations, quips, editorializations about their Pope as observations, quips editorializations about them selves.? Iwasn't talking about Dwood.

..How is it that you compare me to your Pope? What are you saying? I was talking about the Cardinals , their choice and the consequences. If you want to compare,,why not compare Ratz with Carl. Take alook at what Carl did during the Nazi days and nites and compare that with his good buddy Ratz. Tho unfair in most applications, Guilt By Association, is a common device used by the thought police and now The choice of Pope shows a disregard for its effect.

..Your personal slurs are unwarranted and only underscore you inabilty to get the point or humor. I didn't run for Pope. I never claimed to be innocent. You get a freebie on this one,,but the next time you call me a liar or a racist..I'll have a printed copy of your words. ..

[Avatar]

Of course, Kin is right. Still, I got to say that even embracing it (as a child) is scarcely an indictment. (No I have no idea how old he was actually.)

Given the fact that it was propagandised, promoted, and I'm pretty sure, no mention of any atrocities being committed was ever made, but rather the natural desire to fit in was played upon, it's little wonder that it was popular.

And I equally doubt that any child then was aware of the political situation and realities of the issues at hand. So on that fact at least, I find it difficult to condemn somebody.

His other stances now, regarding gays, birth control etc. Those I feel much happier blaming him for.

(Two threads I see. This is gonna be interesting. )

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[dennisrwood]

Avatar: Pope John Paul II made many inroads with various other religions. Judaism, the Orthodox churches among others. but he made a point of going to Jerusalem, standing at the Wailing Wall, of condemning the Church for not doing enough during the Holocaust.

Tolkien: when did Ratzinger not talk about it? he put in his book. and he deserted. what else would you have him do? and I was talking about Lurch's casual racist comments about immigrants.

Kin: wow! for someone who doesn't believe in God you certainly ascribe many of His powers to yourself. you can discern Ratzinger's intent some 60 years later? tell us more please. I guess that the man confessing to his actions, being conscripted from the seminary, deserting and renouncing just ain't good enough for you.

Lurch: oh, I get it infering that someone is a nazi is humor? or was the slam on latinos supposed to be funny? maybe I just don't understand how funny the Holocaust was, or the exploitation of a race can be. please explain, in small words so I can understand it better. and by gosh, why should Catholics be offended by slander and libel of their leader? the pope is Jesus' represenative here on earth. can you understand that? that we feel love for our pope? for our priests, deacons, nuns, bishops, cardinals? for each other. maybe you don't understand that each mass is a profession of our love for God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost. or the love that we have for man and how we despair over what we have done to this world. that we love the babies that are aborted and for the old people shut in and forgotten. and even for the condemned man?
or that my patron saint (Adrian) martyred himself because his fellow Christians we're being persecuted. no, I don't think you understand. the love of Mary, of Joseph. for our family. can you understand that Jesus sacrificed himself for us, and that you make jokes about it? maybe Lurch you won't understand that there is strength in our submission to a higher calling. that submiting our base desires takes more strength than mocking others for their beliefs. maybe you haven't felt the awe at mass, or sat for an hour or two with the Host and felt Jesus there. and maybe you haven't prayed for the souls in purgatory. and maybe that there is something greater than any of us. maybe you believe that after this is only darkness, a void. what I fear most is being away from my God. and I feel guilt for everyone who dies, for everyone that I haven't helped. for everyone that I can't convince. that I turned away someone who needed help. that I can't give enough. that I can't be Pope John Paul II or Mother Theresa or St. Adrian. have you been to Midnight mass? to and Easter celebration. have you felt the void, the emptiness of time spent wandering. the joy of finding Jesus was always there.

[Kinslaughterer]

Kin: wow! for someone who doesn't believe in God you certainly ascribe many of His powers to yourself. you can discern Ratzinger's intent some 60 years later? tell us more please. I guess that the man confessing to his actions, being conscripted from the seminary, deserting and renouncing just ain't good enough for you.

Talk about going out on a limb...I said I don't know what his motives are but I'm always suspicious of blanket denials. And I believe in god just not the same one as you.

[Kinslaughterer]

You're not the only one offended by "slander and libel" as you call it. I'm offended by the rhetoric you just spewed at lurch. He can take care of himself but we're back to the same problem of Jesus this and Jesus that and the Pope is his representative on earth...Yeah lets see what single position probably had more people exterminated in the history of the world? The Crusades, the Cathar massacre, the Templar execution, the Inquistion, missionizing the New World and Asia, the witch hunts, and ignoring the holocaust. We're talking about the deaths of millions of people all placed firmly on one miter. I think suspicion is certainly in order. If you are going to profess your truth then I'm going to profess mine. What's it like to be owned and controlled by something? They've made you think its the one true love in the universe, that this is the only path to salvation etc etc. I think its a load of crap. I know the history of Judaism and Christianity and its all about controlling a population. Jesus was a 1st century terrorist trying to overthrow the Romans. His numerous sayings and parables being mostly old or priorly attributed and his condemnation of gentiles plus the blatant mistranslations show me a setup for "divine control" Sure my side of the story isn't full of love and goodness. But I'm more concerned with being good without reward of heaven or miracles and my thought processes aren't controlled by someone else who has been shown to say one thing and do something completely different. Now that is faith, the church can exterminate millions and we still believe its the only right in the world.
See I can go on a religious tirade too.

[Myste]

This is why I like being an Episcopalian. Belonging to a Church founded by a gluttonous syphilitic whoremongering king who wanted a divorce doesn't give one a lot of room to throw stones at anyone else.

[dlbpharmd]

Jesus was a 1st century terrorist trying to overthrow the Romans.

You know - I've never thought about it this way - but you're absolutely correct! I mean, just look at all the bombings, beheadings, abductions, and hijackings that Jesus was responsible for.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I hope this thread doesn't get locked because I love talking about this stuff!

What amuses me the most is when religions try to explain or ignore the enormity of time.

Formation of the Earth at around 4.5 BILLION years ago.

Humanity crawls out of the "muck" and starts to become civilized around 5K years ago and (at best) Judaism begins.

That's 4,499,995,000 years of ................. what?
Waiting for Jesus?

And that's just the Earth!
Tack on another 30 or 40 BILLION years for the universe.

My *mind* can't help but compare today's active religions with tales of Zeus or Ra.
Childrens stories to appease the simple and the afraid.

But in my *heart* I want Jesus to be real.
Because I'm human and I'm simple and afraid.

So there's an interesting blend of ideas in my head.
The teachings of Jesus is sound.
Love one another, turn the other cheek but sometimes kick some ass when people are doing wrong.

Though raised Catholic, I reject it utterly as an anathema to what I believe Jesus intended his church to be.


And I also really love porn.
Especially blond cheerleader porn.

(come on, it was getting a little too heavy for me)

[Dromond]

You've a funny way of 'lightening' things, HLT!

Seriously though, why should this thread get locked? This is an international discussion board, with a 360 view of things.

For every person who reveres the papacy, there's another who despises it. Both sides can and should be heard.

We are not in our cozy enclaves (both sides) preaching to the choir.

[[Syl]]

All I can say is he's one scary looking dude.

[Warmark Jay]

I find your lack of faith... disturbing

[Warmark Jay]

All kidding aside, to Pope or not to Pope is a completely subjective, no-win argument, as are all faith-based discussions. Maggie Gallagher wrote a column about the new Pope that is (IMHO) incredibly offensive to non-Catholics (and probably even to some Catholics), referring to "the disease of secularism" - implying that anyone who doesn't subscribe to the doctrine of the Church, or in this case does not whole-heartedly endorse the Pope - has something seriously wrong with them. But it seems to me that this is the final line of defense for those arguing the merits of their religious beliefs, regardless of what they are - "I'm right because God is on my side!"